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Just bought my first prius! A few questions.

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Fuel Economy' started by hidaven, Mar 2, 2008.

  1. hidaven

    hidaven Junior Member

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    I have been reading like mad on here and ahve a few questions please. On my first tank of gas im avg. 50mpg in the winter cond. of north NJ. Thats not too bad from what im reading. Im also running the tires at 44psi all the way around and have been using the P&G and other fuel saving tips learned on here. Now, im a bit confused about moving the car forward. I have read that its best to keep the battery out of the equation as much as possible. Now im also reading that there are a bunch of people who reccomend that you accelerate about 30-40% (pedal travel) to somewhat briskly get to the 40-42mph mark to begin the P&G. But if you do that, theres no way to keep the battery from assisting with your ramp up to speed. Then i read about people who accelerate a bit slower using only the orange arrows from the engine with the yellow arrows charging the battery ( I have yet to figure out how to get NO arrows and just the ICM moving the car forward) another post said to use a formula iMPG>MPHx1.5 (im guessing that means to keep your speed, divide by 2 and keep the iMPG above that.....So can someone help me out as im overwelmed with info....lol Second, if we try to keep the battery out of the picture as much as possible, and i also read that its better to "Glide" using No arrows as opposed to using ANY regen (foot off accelerator, or foot on brake) then how will the battery get charged? Lastly, whats the consensus on highway driving? just try to keep a steady speed using just the engine, or should I be doing a 52-62 warp stealth or something similar to low speed P&G? When I try backing off the pedal doing 60, it always shows the orange engine arrows (I understand that its just spinning and not engaged) but its also showing the yellow arrow charging the battery as i have not found a way to get "Just" the orange arrows.....Thanks in advance for helping me out here. I thought with all this info i was going to have to get the"prius for dummys" book! : )
    -Dave
     
  2. JimboK

    JimboK One owner, low mileage

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    Wow, lots of questions for a newbie. Glad you're interested in optimal fuel economy. Let's see if we can keep things fairly simple.

    By "brisk" acceleration, I would avoid accelerating so quickly that the battery has to help. You are correct to stay out of the battery when you can avoid it. There are efficiency losses from converting one form of energy to another, so to run the car on only the ICE in normal driving is more efficient than large, sustained, and repeated draws from the battery that require the ICE to recharge it. Better to let the energy go directly to propulsion. The battery and electric motor are there when you really need the immediate torque and added power for, say, accelerating quickly onto a highway to merge into a small break in traffic.

    Not sure where your iMPG vs. MPH formula came from, but I proposed a rule of thumb, that others have validated to a degree, of keeping iMPG above half the vehicle speed. That keeps ICE RPM out of inefficiently high ranges and minimizes use of the battery for acceleration. At the other end of the spectrum, a simple rule is to keep iMPG at or below MPH. I don't think that one is as critical as the first one. Low RPM may or may not hurt fuel economy, depending on whose experiences and opinions you believe.

    On the highway, with level terrain or only slightly rolling hills, I use cruise control at the slowest speed I can safely go. I did a controlled test for this, and found that CC is as good as warp stealth. For highways with steeper hills, I use warp stealth on the downhills and aim to keep RPM in efficient ranges (which, without a tach, can be done with the aforementioned rule of thumb) on uphills to the extent that traffic and safety allow. I do this based largely on Hobbit's work, though I'd still like to do a controlled test in hilly terrain too.

    As for gliding, a "no arrows" glide is best. That allows the best use of available kinetic energy. Regeneration, though a more energy-efficient means of braking or decelerating than in a conventional car, still results in losses as kinetic energy is converted to electrical energy and then to stored chemical energy in the battery -- with the process reversed to actually use the energy.

    Hope that helps. Let us know if you have more questions or need clarifications.
     
  3. hidaven

    hidaven Junior Member

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    OK, so does the iMPG above half the vehicle apply to take offs from a dead stop? its pretty slow going (about a 1mph increase in speed every second) if you just use the ICE with NO assist from battery.... I guess the big question is: Does slower and longer acceleration yield better gas milage than short quicker starts getting to the same speed before you start P&G? (I guess one needs to factor in the drain on the battery with quicker starts) Lastly, if you are not using the battery to any large degree as you state, how does it get charged?
    -Dave



    "keeping iMPG above half the vehicle speed. That keeps ICE RPM out of inefficiently high ranges and minimizes use of the battery for acceleration. At the other end of the spectrum, a simple rule is to keep iMPG at or below MPH. I don't think that one is as critical as the first one. Low RPM may or may not hurt fuel economy, depending on whose experiences and opinions you believe. "
     
  4. JimboK

    JimboK One owner, low mileage

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    From a dead stop is a little different. Because of the immediate low-end torque provided by the electric motor, it's nearly impossible to start without a brief power burst from the motor and, with it, a brief but large current draw from the battery. Give it enough pedal and the ICE will light within a second or two.

    Frankly, I don't know if the iMPG/MPH rule applies during those first few seconds. Both change so quickly and the duration is so short -- and the waters are muddied by that electric power burst -- that I haven't spent much time looking at it; I proposed the rule more for sustained driving. These days I pay attention more to RPM and current flow into and out of the battery. Once the ICE lights I aim for about 1600-1800 RPM for acceleration unless traffic conditions mandate something higher and faster. That keeps iMPG well above half the vehicle speed at least at speeds above 15-20 MPH. Give me a couple of days and I'll see if I can give you a better idea of the iMPG/MPH/RPM relationship from a stop.

    As for what acceleration rate is best, opinions vary. It seems clear to me that RPM >2400 is inefficient. There was a time when I would aim for 2000-2200 RPM. During the MPG Challenge at least year's Hybridfest, I used that target for my pulse segments during P&G. I got beat by others using lower targets -- 1600, for example, by at least one competitor. There were certainly other factors at work in the competition, but since then I've been using lower engine speeds. Anecdotally, results seem at least comparable if not better. But I'd like to verify that too with another test.

    The battery gets charged either by the ICE or from regeneration. The car is happiest with a state of charge (SOC) of about 60% (6 blue bars), and manages itself very well to keep SOC between 40% (no bars) and 80% (8 green bars). As it starts dropping below that level, the ICE will start diverting power to charge it. Below 50%, the ICE tends to light for recharging even if not needed for propulsion. Again, inefficient if you can avoid it.
     
  5. hidaven

    hidaven Junior Member

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    ok Jim

    so i want to engage the ICE asap from a standstill without getting too high on the rpm's to about 25mph, then I can use the energy monitor (keeping the orange arrows lit from the ICE only) to P&G to 42. Right?
    When comming to a stop, I want to glide (no arrows) as long as possible till about 25-30 feet from the light, then remove my foot from the accelerator using regen, then full regen hitting the brakes. So far for the first 370miles I have avg. 52mpg in 30-35 degree weather. Im guessing this will go up more once the car breaks in, plus warmer weather : ) i just did the engine block mod to keep heat from escaping(top grills and all but one lower grill on the bottom) I will remove these when amb. temp is over 50-55 degrees. Thanks for the help!!
    -D
     
  6. JimboK

    JimboK One owner, low mileage

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    Re: ok Jim

    That's what I do.

    The energy monitor is helpful as soon as the ICE lights to show direction of current flow. What I'm less certain of is how helpful iMPG is during acceleration from a stop.

    Ideally, you'd like to avoid regeneration completely, again because of the conversion losses. Most efficient is gliding, next is regenerative coasting, then regenerative braking, and least efficient is using the friction brakes, which engage only with hard braking or below 7 MPH. It takes timing and practice. The better you learn your normal routes with their traffic light timing and typical traffic patterns, and the better you anticipate upcoming changes, the better you'll time your decelerations. I'm happiest when I never have to stop or even hit the brakes.

    Regardless, your results are quite respectable for a rookie in a NJ winter. I know it's been pretty mild along the Atlantic coast recently, but you're still well above the new EPA estimates. Just wait 'til warmer weather. Keep up the good work!
     
  7. hidaven

    hidaven Junior Member

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    one more question Jim : )

    I just got back from a half hour ride aroung town. With the grille blocked I had an increase of 3-4 mpg getting me to around 55-56mpg the temp was 36, no heater. My big question is that when i picked up my wife i was waiting for her and a 99.9% ticked by.....Now even though the avg miles total didnt change, the 5 min bars cant be too accurate since they are time based rather than movement based right?? I had 2 99.9% bars go by, and im guessing that this must occur stopping at lights, trains, mules crossing etc. So do I just go by the total avg? Thanks, dave
     
  8. morpheusx

    morpheusx Professor Chaos

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    For a newbie he is doing great, just wait in another month and a half when your temps go up to about 60 degree's, you may be flirting with 60 MPG tanks. Or even 65 MPG tanks if you can keep the short trips out of the equation.

    Quick question for Jimbo, What tires and pressure are you running.
     
  9. hidaven

    hidaven Junior Member

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    Thanks!

    By the way , is there any room at your house, my wife is getting ready to divorce me. She said i was obsessed by that readout screen and i pay no attention to her at all. I tried to involve her in the conversation by asking her to give me 10 sec readouts as to the instant miles per gal. and she wanted no part of it. I even yelled at her for changing the consumption screen to play a CD. I didnt tell her this but sometimes I talk to the screen as im driving, asking it for a 60mpg green bar. Hey, is there a support group on this site? Not that I need help but it would be a cool group therapy session if I can learn more about Sylvia....Thats what I named my monitor.
     
  10. MPG > HP

    MPG > HP Junior Member

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    PLEASE!! No 52-62 warp stealth or something

    At least not while being followed. It's not only REALLY annoying to follow someone who can't or won't "maintain a steady strain", but for non-hybrids, it's really inefficient. Just keep the cruise control at the average speed of the furthest car you can see ahead of you and everyone will be happier! Remember, "The well being of the many outweighs that of the few".
     
  11. JimboK

    JimboK One owner, low mileage

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    Frankly, I don't watch the bars. For trip averages I use added instrumentation, previously ScanGauge and now CAN-View.

    I have Michelin Hydroedges. I'm running ... uh ... <whispering> ... 60. ;) Not necessarily recommended for the masses.