Leaving the group

Discussion in 'Prime Main Forum (2017-Current)' started by PriusGuy4Now, Sep 11, 2021.

  1. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    That is the point of PHEV, exactly what Toyota hopes to capitalize on with the bZ offerings. Know your audience.
     
  2. jerrymildred

    jerrymildred Senior Member

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    That would be my preference, but a few things push against it in our particular case.
    • The Prime has over 57k miles and the regular Prius has only about 24k.
    • The regular Prius has a spare tire and lots more room than the Prime, so better for long vacation trips.
    • The wife really doesn't like the Prime but she loves her regular Gen 4.
    If we get a Tesla, I'm not sure if she'll like it or hate it. :D But so far, it's still at the top of my list, hopefully for next year.
     
  3. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    That statement for me is: "When we get a bZ4X"

    It's just a matter of enduring the painfully long wait... which has become routine for me over the past 22 years... starting way back in late 1999 with my first Prius.
     
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  4. satxprime

    satxprime New Member

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    I got this car as a PHEV specifically because I wanted to have the option to charge but don't have a daily place to do so as a renter. Once we buy a house, we'll be upgrading our 2nd car from an ICE to a BEV.
     
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  5. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Sand Pounder

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    Our daughter got a Tesla 3. I've volounteered to wax it for her, sometime, but: that would more'n likely involve me having to drive it, and I've yet to work up the nerve. I think the Tesla "learning curve" eclipses the Prius, which speaks volumes.
     
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  6. JMalmsteen

    JMalmsteen I love my Prius!

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    #26 JMalmsteen, Sep 12, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2021
  7. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    On the most fossil fuel intense grids in the US, the CO2 emissions of a Model 3 are just slightly worse than that of a Prius. It will take a hypermiler in the Prius to match the Tesla in some other parts, and the ICE car can't in the rest.

    Are Electric Vehicles Really Better for the Climate? Yes. Here’s Why - Union of Concerned Scientists

    [​IMG]
    Cleaner Cars from Cradle to Grave | Union of Concerned Scientists

    The Kona EV will do a little worse, but I think the OP will still be beating that Prius.
     
    #27 Trollbait, Sep 12, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2021
  8. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    That's a red herring, since we know electricity will continue to get cleaner... which in turn, so does the plug-in vehicle.
     
  9. JMalmsteen

    JMalmsteen I love my Prius!

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    As of right now, electric cars run on electric that might very well come from fossil fuels. I have two Teslas on order, so I'm all for EVs, but I don't think I will be polluting that much less initially. I am planning on getting solar, since our vacation home is entirely electric based and running the house and cars on solar would be ideal.
     
  10. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    has Toyota set a date for USA deliveries? Or is Toyota's head still dead set against building EV's for countries - except those countries that threaten to kick them out of their markets (china).
    .
     
  11. jerrymildred

    jerrymildred Senior Member

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    I've driven a model S. Didn't get any kind of an introduction. It was fun, but I know I didn't know how to get the most out of it. I've sat in a Model 3 but not driven it. However, there are some great Youtube videos that take you through all the settings and features. Pretty exciting stuff.

    And I just now saw another video on the Hyundai Ionic 5. You can't order one yet and they don't even have the MSRP on the website. But it does look VERY interesting. Still no idea of the m/kWh or MPGe yet.
     
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  12. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Your EVs, and Prime on electric, will pollute less than the Prime on gasoline.

    Solar or other renewable would be ideal, but the EV drive train is quite efficient, and a NG power is more efficient than a car engine.
     
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  13. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    That varies considerably by locale, to a much finer detail than shown in the map above. If I plug in, without expanding my own home solar system, the energy will come primarily from hydro, secondarily from nuclear and wind. Fossil is minimal here under the area's public utilities (who got first pick of all the hydro), but substantial from private utilities very nearby (who are last in line for that hydro).
     
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  14. bluespruce

    bluespruce Member

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    The goal is to pollute less and save the Planet and get as many people thinking that way as possible. Any and all ways of doing this should be encouraged.
     
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  15. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Sand Pounder

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    Driving less is slam-dunk easy, if you can manage it. Consolidated trips helps too. Ditto for regular block heater use.
     
  16. Ovation

    Ovation Junior Member

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    On my routine neighbourhood walk, I pass three houses within five minutes set up that way (2 have a pair of Ioniqs, one has a Prime and a Bolt).
     
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  17. Laura-Ann

    Laura-Ann Junior Member

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    The reason that Toyota has been reluctant to go full EV for the American market is due to several factors, some economic, some technical, some political. Here are a few of them:

    1. The public infrastructure for charging EV's is only just beginning to be created; there are already not enough public charging stations for the microscopic number of EV's and PHEV's on the road now. It is EXTREMELY frustrating to be driving an EV - let's use Nissan Leaf for example - and to find that 9 times out of ten, when you get to your destination, all of the charging stations are already in use, and you can't get home on what's left in your battery, leaving you to sit and wait - sometimes for 2 or 3 whole hours - for a charger to become available. Just this one factor is 99% of why Americans are buying PVEV's like the Prius Prime in far larger numbers than the Bolt, Leaf, or Ioniq.

    2. BEV's and PHEV's are all engineering compromises between weight, volume, range, and manufacturing cost.
    a. Cost: Lithium batteries are expensive, and the more capacity you put in a car, the more it costs to make. The Prius Prime costs at least $3,000 less than a Nissan Leaf Plus up front,
    b. Range: The PHEV Prius Prime may have only a 35 mile EV mode range (that's what I average in mine), but when you are on a road trip, it's capable of going 600 miles on 11 gallons of gas. And you can refill it in 5 minutes at any gas station. The Leaf can only go 226 miles on a charge, and that's under ideal conditions: flat terrain, no headwind, speed <45mph, no use of heater, defroster, or air conditioning. And when the battery is depleted, you are facing up to 10 hours of wait time to charge that 62 kw-hr battery, and that's on a 6,600 watt charger, assuming you can find one. Many public L2 chargers only deliver 3,300 watts. The "real world" range of any EV, as attested to by numerous Tesla Model 3 owners, is up to 50% less than the "maximum" range. Worst-case scenario, you live in Florida, where you run the a/c all summer (9 months a year), or Minnesota, where you run the heater all winter (again, 9 months a year), or you live in a city with a lot of steep hills like San Francisco, and you will see battery performance far less than the optimistic numbers the manufacturers love to quote.
    c. Weight/energy density: Batteries are heavy, and even the best lithium ion cells hold far less energy per pound than the energy in a pound of gasoline. Specifically: the battery in a Prius Prime weighs 275 pounds and it can hold enough energy to drive the car 35 miles, after which you need 2.5 hours to recharge it. The 11.4 gallons of gasoline in the Prius Prime fuel tank weighs 68 pounds and can drive the car at least 600 miles, after which you need 5 minutes to refuel it. In the Nissan Leaf, the 62 kw-hr battery weighs 900 pounds. The gas engine in the Prius Prime has a dry weight of 214 pounds, so far less than a big battery.
    d. Long-term costs: the gas engine in a Prius should last 200,000 miles, whereas no one would reasonably expect the battery in a Nissan Leaf, or any BEV, to last that long.
    e. Politics: Installing the network of public EV chargers that will be needed to meet Government goals of a non-fossil-fuel based transportation network by 2050 is going to cost billions of dollars just in California, where we have a very progressive-minded citizenry. But when a politician goes in front of a microphone to state that $100 million/year needs to be earmarked for expanding the network of public charging stations, people freak out and scream "Government Waste!". Down in Texas, they would probably lynch a politician who proposed to spend that kind of money on promoting EV's.

    Given the current situation in the US, Toyota is actually making very sensible choices. Their model lineup has been focused on Hybrids. with PHEV's for those willing to shell out $30K for a Prius Prime, or $40K for a Rav 4 Prime. Pure EV's have been a niche market for a decade, and the network of public charging stations is going to have to expand enormously to make them attractive, but California at least is committed to cleaning up the air, and other states will follow suit sooner or later.
     
  18. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    The Leaf is a horrible BEV because Nissan's choice of passive air cooling magnifies any negatives a BEV can have. It is a poor example. The Model 3 would be a better one. Just saying.

    1. The majority of households that can afford an early BEV have more than one car and home charging. That's a plus for BEVs as they can be sold to a larger market, than say hydrogen cars, while allowing the public infrastructure to grow along side BEV sales. Refueling away from home is a hassle for early adopters, but getting gasoline wasn't as easy as it is in the beginning. Worse case with a BEV is plugging into a wall outlet vs. being stranded because there is no hydrogen stations.

    2. I agree that PHEVs and early BEVs were compromises. Newer BEVs are being built on dedicated platforms now, and only a compromise if the definition includes all cars.
    a. Compared to costs ten years ago, Li-ion batteries for cars are cheap. At least for the car companies that planned for EV growth, and secured supplies. Toyota was not one of those to do so based on the Rav4 Prime roll out.

    b. You seem to be confusing charger with EVSE with regards to L2 systems. The charger is built into the car. If a L2 is limiting the car to 3,300 wats, it is because the car's charger is only 3.3kW. Now it is possible the L2's supply could be a limiting factor, but I bet such L2 EVSE's fall under the free category.

    The question of range itself comes down to what the individual needs. 150 miles is plenty for most people with home charging, even when accounting for the range reducing scenarios you mention. BEVs are getting longer ranges now because of mental hurdles in the public. For the majority, such ranges only matter for long trips. Those require a network of fast DC chargers, which are far faster than L2 units. Tesla knew this, so they started building their own network, since no one else would.

    c. And SUVs tend to be heavier than cars, yet people are buying SUVs. Batteries are heavy, but well designed BEVs are making use of that weight to improve driving dynamics and performance. The Model 3 is a heavy car that doesn't have an aluminum frame like the S. It is the most efficient BEV available, and no slouch at the track. Most car buyers simply don't care about the vehicle's weight as long as the car does everything they want. But future BEvs will likely make use of structural battery packs that allow reduction in over all car weight.

    d. Some BEV batteries may have lasted that long. Battery capacity likely dropped, but it can be sold to someone in which the current range is fine if it doesn't work for the current owner. Very few people buy a car new, and keep it for 200k miles. There are many things to worry about on cars of such age. The motors and electrical systems for them are probably more robust than the transmission and others on the ICE car. Now hydrogen FCEVs, those are disposable cars.

    e. Hydrogen infrastructure will cost trillions, and the companies pioneering the cars have done their best the avoid paying for it. Meanwhile, some markets have enough BEVs that gas stations and convenience stores see an advantage to installing DC chargers. Tesla hasn't stopped building Superchargers, and VW is selling the ID.4 to make use of the Electrify America units. Government subsidies will speed it up, and will get more service per dollar than supporting hydrogen.

    Some will say my bringing up hydrogen is a distraction, but it isn't in a discussion about Toyota being reluctant to go plug in. Nearly all the reasons for them to take their time with releasing a BEV apply to hydrogen FCEVs. Yet, they have released 2 generations of the Mirai in the US. These cars needed larger subsidies just to get them down a competitive price with BEVs. Nearly all of them will need to have had the hydrogen tanks replaced before reaching 200k miles. Same with the fuel cell as its output likely would have degraded. A hydrogen network will cost more, and will need to be in place before the cars can be sold.

    Toyota has the resources to work on both FCEV and BEVs. Honda released a BEV, FCEV, and PHEV of the Clarity, and they are a smaller company. Instead, Toyota has only released BEVs as compliance cars. That's why the US got a Tesla powered Rav4 EV, and most other BEVs only went to China. The ZEV system gives more credits to FCEVs, so Toyota stopped with BEVs in the US.

    Toyota's backing of hydrogen makes their stance of BEVs hypocritical.
     
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  19. Montgomery

    Montgomery Senior Member

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    I really enjoyed your explanation of the "why's". It all makes sense now. Especially about the charging time and how running items on your vehicle uses up the battery faster. If you really do the math, as long as there is gasoline, manufacturing a hybrid makes sense.
     
  20. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    Where did you come up with the 308 mpge? fueleconomy.gov top ten is showing 120 mpge, and Prius Prime is 133 mpge.

    Why would you buy a Hyundai if you wanted an EV? You could buy a new or use Model 3. With its motor update, the Model 3 gets 142 mpge, beating the Kona's lowly 120 mpge fuel economy by 18%. Moreover, you get semiautonomous driving. However, enjoy your Kona!
     
    #40 Gokhan, Sep 14, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2021
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