Lebanon Is Not Innocent

wstander · Jul 24, 2006

http://www.newsmax.com/scripts/printer_fri.../24/91027.shtml

NewsMax.com
Lebanon Is Not Innocent
David Horowitz
Monday, July 24, 2006
In war innocents pay a heavy price. There is no way to fight a war without "collateral damage" to civilians unless the opposing armies agree to meet in a desert and let the superior force prevail.
It certainly cannot be done when the aggressor is a terrorist army that deliberately places its headquarters, its weapons depots, its missile launchers and its staging bases in the middle of large urban centers like Beirut, or in the small villages abutting the border of its victims.
Sometimes the death of innocents comes not from collateral damage but from the deliberate targeting of civilians â€“ as is almost invariably the case with terrorist armies like Hezbollah and Hamas.
In World War II wherever the Wehrmacht went, Jews were rounded up for the slaughter. Guernica and Lidice are the names of innocent towns with no military value that were deliberately destroyed by the fascists.
Sometimes innocents are targeted even by civilized armies with military ends in view. The allied bombings of Dresden, Tokyo, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki incinerated hundreds of thousands of civilians for military reasons.
The allied bombings were designed to break the morale of the enemy and to end the war, and save millions of lives. They did, and we can all be grateful for that (or at least the honest among us can).
Critics of Israel's defensive war against Islamic terrorists are busily wringing their hands over the destruction that has been wreaked on Lebanon and its inhabitants, who are portrayed as innocent bystanders. They invoke these tragedies while calling on Israel to cease its fire and leave the Hezbollah aggressors intact.
Since Israel had no role in starting this war, this is like blaming the Allies for the damage inflicted on Germany in World War II â€“ and doing so in the midst of the war. Critics who make such charges and demands in the midst of a war are aiding and abetting the aggressors.
But the very idea that Lebanon is an innocent bystander in the war against Israel won't wash. Lebanon is host to the terrorist aggressor which has sworn to eliminate Israel and its Jews from the face of the earth. This is the explicit creed of both Hezbollah and its sponsor Iran. And not just in their charter or in statements made months or years ago.
Iran's little dictator reiterated the threat even yesterday in the midst of Islam's aggressive war against the Jews: "Israel has pushed the button of its own destruction. The Zionists made their worst decision and triggered their extinction by attacking Lebanon" (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=108152). Hezbollah is part of the Lebanese government, occupying two cabinet positions and seats in its parliament.
The Lebanese government agreed to enforce U.N. Resolution 1559 which calls on it to disarm all militias on its territory, namely Hezbollah. If the Lebanese government had performed this obligation, there would be no war, and there would be no Lebanese civilian casualties.
Instead the Lebanese government allowed Hezbollah to build its headquarters and underground bunkers in the populated neighborhoods of Beirut. It allowed Hezbollah to import 13,000 missiles to be fired into Israel's cities and towns.
The 75,000-man Lebanese army has not sealed off the Syrian border and, according to reports, has allowed Syria to re-supply Hezbollah in the midst of its aggression. The Lebanese government has allowed Hezbollah to build underground fortresses on its southern border in position to attack. It has allowed Hezbollah to launch rockets into the towns of northern Israel to terrorize and kill innocent civilians.
Israel has done nothing to provoke this attack from Lebananese territory. But in the midst of Hezbollah's aggression against Israel, Lebanon's prime minister has joined the attackers, blaming Israel for Lebanon's misery instead of its source.
It will be objected that Lebanon is helpless, that its democracy was destroyed and its territory conquered by the PLO, Hezbollah, Syria, and Iran. It will be said that the Lebanese cannot resist the superior force of Hezbollah's "state within a state." But this is an argument in bad faith.
No one is helpless.
When France was occupied by Germany during World War II, DeGaulle organized the "free French" into a fighting force. The so-called "Cedar Revolution" showed that there are ways of manifesting opposition and resistance to the occupiers.
Even though it failed, it showed that resistance is possible. If there is resistance to Islamic terror in Lebanon today, it is even more invisible than moderate Islam.
Put bluntly, while the Lebanese have demonstrated their resistance to the Syrian occupier in the very recent past, there has been no evidence of it when the aggressor is an Islamic force bent on obliterating the Jews.
The Lebanese army has not lifted a finger to obstruct Hezbollah's aggression, but the Lebanese prime minister has been out front in attacking Israel. Who, watching the Lebanese interviewed by reporters during the war â€“ including the Lebanese Americans evacuated to safety â€“ can doubt that their hatred is for Jews and not for the Islamic killers of both the Jews and the Lebanese?
The last stand of Western imperialism is the patronizing attitude displayed by Western radicals and liberals toward Third World Muslims and Arabs. If Americans taught their children to murder Muslims as a quick pass to heaven, the left would regard this as a crime against humanity. But if Palestinians are the perpetrators of such crimes and Jews are the targets, it's a different story.
In this case terror is the only means (and therefore the understandable means) of a "desperate" people.
Jews who have been told by the leader of Iran that their extinction is imminent of course aren't desperate.
Hassan Nasrallah is not a victim, let alone a helpless one; nor is he stupid, or unaware of what he is doing. He knows just what his agenda is. "There is no solution to the conflict in this region except with the disappearance of Israel" he told a crowd of supporters.
"I promise Israel that it will see more suicide attacks, for we will write our history with blood." His supporters responded with chants of "Death to Israel, death to America." Counseling the Israelis to lay down their arms in the face of these threats and negotiate with a movement that seeks their destruction is a not so surreptitious support for the malignant agendas themselves.
Making excuses for Lebanese appeasement of these agendas while directing moral outrage against the intended victims repeats a familiar pattern among leftist critics of America and Israel.
In weighing in on the frontline battles against the terrorists in Lebanon, Gaza, and Iraq, critics attribute civilian casualties not to the terrorists but to their opponents; liberation and self-defense are denounced as "occupation." This is not even moral equivalence; it is sympathy for the devil.
Until the arrival of Arafat and the Palestinian terrorists, Lebanon was a Christian democracy. But Islamic radicalism could not tolerate either Christianity or democracy.
This â€“ not the presence of tiny Israel (one hundred times smaller than its current antagonists) is the root cause of the violence in the Middle East.
The cause is Arab intolerance and Islamic hate.
One Jewish state among 22 Arab states was one too many. Six million Jews among 300 million Arabs was too much to bear.
A sliver of land, less than 1 percent of the Arab land mass, which belonged first to the Turks and then to the British, was an imperialist outrage. Lebanon, a country raped by the Syrian-Iranian axis and the Palestinians has become an integral component of the terrorists' war plan to push the Middle Eastern Jews, who have lived continuously for 3,000 years in the region, into the sea.
Lebanon is a tragedy of the 58-year Arab war against Israel, against democracy, and against Christianity in the Middle East. But its government and its people are not innocent.

Wildkow · Jul 25, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(wstander @ Jul 24 2006, 01:35 PM) [snapback]291574[/snapback]</div>

http://www.newsmax.com/scripts/printer_fri.../24/91027.shtml
NewsMax.com
Lebanon Is Not Innocent
David Horowitz
Monday, July 24, 2006
In war innocents pay a heavy price. There is no way to fight a war without "collateral damage" to civilians unless the opposing armies agree to meet in a desert and let the superior force prevail.
It certainly cannot be done when the aggressor is a terrorist army that deliberately places its headquarters, its weapons depots, its missile launchers and its staging bases in the middle of large urban centers like Beirut, or in the small villages abutting the border of its victims.
Sometimes the death of innocents comes not from collateral damage but from the deliberate targeting of civilians â€“ .......................
Until the arrival of Arafat and the Palestinian terrorists, Lebanon was a Christian democracy. But Islamic radicalism could not tolerate either Christianity or democracy.
This â€“ not the presence of tiny Israel (one hundred times smaller than its current antagonists) is the root cause of the violence in the Middle East.
The cause is Arab intolerance and Islamic hate.
One Jewish state among 22 Arab states was one too many. Six million Jews among 300 million Arabs was too much to bear.
A sliver of land, less than 1 percent of the Arab land mass, which belonged first to the Turks and then to the British, was an imperialist outrage. Lebanon, a country raped by the Syrian-Iranian axis and the Palestinians has become an integral component of the terrorists' war plan to push the Middle Eastern Jews, who have lived continuously for 3,000 years in the region, into the sea.
Lebanon is a tragedy of the 58-year Arab war against Israel, against democracy, and against Christianity in the Middle East. But its government and its people are not innocent.
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Good post! Finally someone has spoken on this subject. . . but somehow Israel, Bush and America will get the blame.

Wildkow

Ron Dupuy · Jul 25, 2006

I never thought I'd see this view on PC. It is refreshing.

Wildkow · Jul 27, 2006

Must be irrefutable no replies from the America is the terrorist/bully whacko left. :lol:

Wildkow

mssmith95 · Jul 28, 2006

Did you hear this one!

From Spiegel Interview

'Hezbollah Freed Our Country'

Lebanese President Emile Lahoud, 70, tells DER SPIEGEL about how the current conflict is affecting his country, the role of the Lebanese army and his relationship with Shiite militia Hezbollah.

Norbert Schiller
Lebanese President Emile Lahoud claims Israel is destroying his country and Hezbollah has his respect.

SPIEGEL: Mr President, you are the commander-in-chief of the Lebanese army. Lebanon finds itself in the middle of a war, but it is being fought by a militia in the south of the country. Where is the regular army?

Lahoud: I myself built up this army following the civil war and integrated all the religious groups: Muslims, Christians and Druze. This army is there to secure internal peace, but it is not an army to fight a war.

SPIEGEL: United Nations Resolution 1559 demands that the army should control the whole country -- up to the border with Israel.

Lahoud: It (the army) does that. But it wasn't the army that freed the occupied south of the country, rather it was the resistance which achieved that. Without this resistance Lebanon would still be occupied today.

SPIEGEL: You're talking about Hezbollah. But Israel's withdrawal happened six years ago. Why has the state still not fulfilled the task set by the UN?

Lahoud: Naturally the strongholds of the resistance are not known. Despite the hail of bombs, the Israelis have been unable to produce one single photo of a destroyed resistance base, because they don't know where they are. Army bases, on the other hand, are well known and this is why they are invariably destroying our armed forces and, above all, civilian targets.

SPIEGEL: The fact remains that Beirut has failed to establish any authority in the south -- and this is exactly how Israel is justifying its attacks.

Lahoud: But that authority is what Israel is wrecking. The Israeli armed forces are destroying Lebanon, and the international community isn't trying to hold them back, but giving them more time to complete their plan of destruction.

SPIEGEL: Should the kidnapped soldiers, as Israel demands, be returned without conditions? Or do you consider it legitimate to use them as a bargaining chip?

Lahoud: The exchange of prisoners has always worked perfectly in the past. The Germans above all were very helpful in this process. It is unclear whether that will happen this time. It's a charged atmosphere.

SPIEGEL: Please explain your relationship to Hezbollah. What do you think of Hassan Nasrallah?

Lahoud: Hezbollah enjoys utmost prestige in Lebanon, because it freed our country. All over the Arab world you hear: Hezbollah maintains Arab honor, and even though it (Hezbollah) is very small, it stands up to Israel. And of course Nasrallah has my respect.

SPIEGEL: The United Nations want to defuse the problem through a massive deployment of international troops in southern Lebanon.

Lahoud: That is an old proposal, which is hardly achievable. As long as the conflict between Lebanon and Israel remains unresolved, no international force will help, however large it may be. The problems smoulder on: the undetermined status of the Schebaa Farms, the Lebanese prisoners in Israel and above all the Palestinian refugees in Lebanon.

SPIEGEL: Why the Palestinians?

Lahoud: We have today around half a million Palestinian refugees in Lebanon, their birth rate is three times higher than the Lebanese. That is a time bomb. It is the basic problem of our country, it led to the outbreak of civil war in 1975 and still remains unsolved today. Everybody today is talking about UN resolution 1559, but nobody mentions resolution 194, which recognizes the Palestinians' right of return (to Israel). Lebanon is small and can't integrate the Palestinians.[/b]
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A few interesting points:
1. If the "stongholds" of Hezbollah are not known, then how does he know that the "civilian" targets he is claiming are being hit are not really the strongholds? He can't have it both ways!

2. Sure it's ok to do the kidnap swap...hell, the German's are great at getting Israel to make deals, so why not?

3. Remember how much everyone loves the Palestinians over there...yet with statements like "their birth rate is three times higher then the Lebanese" he sure sounds more interested in getting rid of them for fear they will eventually overrun his country, then truly worried about their current and future circumstances.

4. Prestige for Hezbollah? Respect for terrorists? The REAL truth comes out.

Here we have it right from the "horses" mouth...Lebanon was never and is never going to remove Hezbollah...and will continue to condone any actions taken by Hezbollah. Their people have spoken, their President has spoken...do we need to see it any more clearly?

Mirza · Jul 29, 2006

This is bullshit because not all Lebanese support Hezbollah... but to those that do... first off most of them aren't going to go fighting... it's a symbolic thing... to those that do 'like' Hezbollah... to them Hezbollah is the only one willing to stand up for them (in their view).

Here's the tragedy for the Lebanese people... they are pro-Western society. My Lebanese neighbor took footage of the 'anniversary' of the tragic assassination of Prime Minister Hariri. They wave American flags amongst the Lebanese flags. On CNN I was watching a video of Anderson Cooper in that demonstration... Lebanese were enchanting "We Love America!"

You all are too blind too see what's happened to Lebanon in its more recent history. They took it for George Bush Senior in the first Iraq War. They took it again through Syria. Nevermind the history of occupation. It is no surprise to me that such a seemingly hopeless people do not trust us.

----
And here's an interesting update for you neocon asswipes:

"Hezbollah back peace package"
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060729/ap_on_...g_peace_package

mssmith95 · Jul 29, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mirza @ Jul 28 2006, 09:01 PM) [snapback]294169[/snapback]</div>

This is bullshit because not all Lebanese support Hezbollah... but to those that do... first off most of them aren't going to go fighting... it's a symbolic thing... to those that do 'like' Hezbollah... to them Hezbollah is the only one willing to stand up for them (in their view).

Here's the tragedy for the Lebanese people... they are pro-Western society. My Lebanese neighbor took footage of the 'anniversary' of the tragic assassination of Prime Minister Hariri. They wave American flags amongst the Lebanese flags. On CNN I was watching a video of Anderson Cooper in that demonstration... Lebanese were enchanting "We Love America!"

You all are too blind too see what's happened to Lebanon in its more recent history. They took it for George Bush Senior in the first Iraq War. They took it again through Syria. Nevermind the history of occupation. It is no surprise to me that such a seemingly hopeless people do not trust us.

----
And here's an interesting update for you neocon asswipes:

"Hezbollah back peace package"
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060729/ap_on_...g_peace_package
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Ok, first there is no need for the language you are using.

Second, of course there are some American flags in the crowd...there were 25,000 americans in Lebanon before this all started! I am sure there are also some there who support the US as well (most likely the Christians). However, they also support a Terrorist group! I do not see them fighting to destroy Hezbollah, who has killed countless Americans!

We are not blind, we see that Lebanon has let a terrorist group go unchecked...building strength. They have let them bring in thousands and thousands of weapon, let them build tunnels, let them install their weapons in civilian areas, and let them join the government so that they could "legitimize" all of those actions. This is all completly opposite of what they were supposed to do! They were supposed to disarm Hezbollah...and not support Hezbollah. Hey, I'm not even against them having Hezbollah in the government...but if Hezbollah can then use that standing to push their agenda...and control enough areas so that others in the government do not know what they are doing with their military wing...that can not be tolerated!

Finally, take another look at the article you posted....specifically the terms of the actual proposal (not the added commentary)...and who benefits in each case:

The plan approved by the Cabinet was an outline that Saniora presented at an international conference in Rome on Wednesday.

It starts out with an immediate cease-fire Hezbollah can re-group and re-supply. Following that would come:

â€¢ the release of Lebanese and Israeli prisoners; Israeli withdrawal behind the border; the return of Lebanese displaced by the fighting. Ok, here we go with the 100 for 1 trades again...give in here and they will just do it again

â€¢ moves to resolve the status of Chebaa Farms, a small piece of land held by Israel and claimed by Lebanon. The proposal calls for the U.N. Security Council to commit to putting the area under U.N. control until a final demarcation of the border. Israel gives away territory again

â€¢ the provision by Israel of maps of minefields laid during its 18-year occupation of the south. Again, Israel has to give (although this should have been given to the UN or 3rd party to deal with a long time ago)

â€¢ "the spreading of Lebanese government authority over the entire country," meaning the deployment of the Lebanese army in the south, with the strengthening and increasing of the small, lightly armed U.N. peacekeeping force currently there. Wait, haven't they told us time and time again that they are no match for Hezbollah and will never confront them? What has changed that? [/b]
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So, where does this actually state the Hezbollah would need to disband, or turn in their arms?

I fail to see the benefit to Israel...so why would Israel sign on to something like this? I mean, giving all prisioners back, giving back land (is it my imagination of is Israel the only country who always has to give back land it has taken in conflicts?...if that was the case everywhere in the world, the world would be an entirely different looking place, and I would be living in Mexico!)

Mirza, I am having trouble understanding your position.

Please help me to understand....

1. Do you think Hezbollah needs to be disarmed?
2. Do you believe that Hezbollah would have killed Americans again if given the chance (before this conflict)
3. If one harbors a terrorist, or chooses not to help catch them, can they still be considered Neutral?
4. How would you have handled it if you were in charge in Israel (or any country), and representatives from another country crossed your border and killed and kidnapped your troops.

Please, I am being serious...please answer as directly as you can without responding to the questions with other accusations and questions as your answers.

Mirza · Jul 29, 2006

Man, I support the Israelis. I support the Lebanese. In this case, I've chosen to defend the Lebanese people against claims of guilt that I do not see as fit. Lebanon is a democracy, and I suppose some of the Shiites of Lebanon voted the minority Hezbollah into the goverment. Hezbollah needs to be disarmed. I see the right of Israel to defend itself... but I think it's too much but obviously all of you are going to disagree.

If I was in charge of Israel, I would tell the Lebanese goverment that I would pledge my full help and cooperation in helping them rebuild. That's my position... my stake is that I will not support moral degredations of the Lebanese people.

Hezbollah started this, and the Lebanese see this. But let's be real here... it's Israeli weapons (and I mean that they are justified in defending themselves) that are unfortunately killing the Lebanese... not the Hezbollah rockets... obviously vice-versa is that Hezbollah rockets are threatening the lives of hundreds of thousands of Israelis. And I am damn well aware of the Hezbollah tactics of hiding in civilian areas... and ultimately getting Israel to hit civilians in while they respond to the rocket/missile firing locations of the guerillas. But any Lebanese with half a brain knows that those missiles or whatever hitting Beirut and choking the civilian (and guerilla) infrastructures knows that they're from Israel. People on both sides have too much pride and dignity (in a negative way) to just realize the stupidity of Hezbollah.

I don't care what you think of my position, but I will always defend the people of Lebanon against unjust accusations like those of this thread. I do not stand for taking one side.

You'd be surprised though... amongst my Muslim friends I defend Israel and lay the blame on Hezbollah. Hope I've made myself very clear.

I have discussed this with my Lebanese friend... I asked her this... aside from the casualties being inflicted by Israeli rockets... I asked her this: wouldn't it be better for Lebanon if Israel was able to succeed in demolishing Hezbollah? She said yes. Things are more complicated than what the layperson sees. PM Hariri, a couple of months after his assasination, was said to have had uncovered some nasty information about cooperation between Syria and Hezbollah, and that relationship's impact on Lebanese politics. Theory goes that Syria wanted the assasination, but ultimately had to get the go ahead from Hezbollah. IE they found out about this, and had the humanist killed. It's such a tragic story. Just a little side stuff of interest that you won't hear on the media.

Mirza · Jul 29, 2006

Look, I don't care what side you're on or what the hell has happened to started a conflict... but if your family dies in an attack and your life blown to smithereens... you're going to be angry at the person who did it and not necessarily the person who started it. Please show some more concern for the pro-Western Lebanese, else I am forced to defend them in debate.

And no that doesn't mean substitute sympathy for the Jewish people after all they've been through (not just WWII)... it just means that they aren't the only people deserving of some respect... because they've been screwed over too.

mssmith95 · Jul 29, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mirza @ Jul 28 2006, 09:41 PM) [snapback]294182[/snapback]</div>

Man, I support the Israelis. I support the Lebanese. In this case, I've chosen to defend the Lebanese people against claims of guilt that I do not see as fit. Lebanon is a democracy, and I suppose the Shiites and Lebanon voted the minority Hezbollah into the goverment. Hezbollah needs to be disarmed. I see the right of Israel to defend itself... but I think it's too much but obviously all of you are going to disagree.

If I was in charge of Israel, I would tell the Lebanese goverment that I would pledge my full help and cooperation in helping them rebuild. That's my position... my stake is that I will not support moral degredations of the Lebanese people.

Hezbollah started this, and the Lebanese see this. But let's be real here... it's Israeli weapons (and I mean that they are justified in defending themselves) that are unfortunately killing the Lebanese... not the Hezbollah rockets... obviously vice-versa is that Hezbollah rockets are threatening the lives of hundreds of thousands of Israelis.

I don't care what you think of my position, but I will always defend the people of Lebanon against unjust accusations. I do not stand for taking one side.

You'd be surprised... amongst my Muslim friends I defend Israel and lay the blame on Hezbollah. Hope I've made myself very clear.
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Yes that helps. However, you use the term "Lebanese people" a lot. That is what I do not understand.

Obviously, Lebanon has many different factions, and although it may have looked like they were living in peace...at least one radical faction (Hezbollah), was building enough power and military might, that it could have easily taken over Lebanon one day by force.

I assume that most of us differentiate between the Lebanese people who do no support these radicals and want them disarmed, and those who either openly or covertly support them. I believe that you are concerned for those who do not support them...and believe that they are being unjustly punished for the actions of others.

I do agree with your concern...however, I also have not seen anyone come up with another way. Could Israel have given more warning before attacking..giving the civilians more time to flee? That would also have given Hezbollah more time to "disappear" or prepare.

I really believe that more countries should have joined in, and by sheer numbers crushed Hezbollah as fast as possible. This long drawn out battle will only cause more losses on both sides.

So I fully understand your defending those in Lebanon who do not support Hezbollah in any way shape of form. I agree with you. However, at some point these people need to defend themselves and their country against Hezbollah...and if they do not, they can not blame Israel, or the US, or the UN for doing it for them, and inflicting some unfortunate civilian casualties along the way.

Ocasionally, I do hear Israel make comments about "punnishing" or "knocking them back to the 19th century". This type of talk is unfortunate, and shows that Israel can go overboard sometimes. However, not living there, and not having the constant threat of annialation...I can not know if I would feel that same way if I lived in Israel.

Wildkow · Jul 29, 2006

Name one agreement/treaty that terrorist have honored.

Mirza · Jul 29, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wildkow @ Jul 29 2006, 01:08 AM) [snapback]294189[/snapback]</div>

Name one agreement/treaty that terrorist have honored.
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Man, I made my stance on Hezbollah clear. Peace out.
-------------------------

And to answer your question mssmith... I think Israel did give them warning... I suppose they could've done so more in advance... but if I was raised an Israeli I'd do the same damn thing. It's because I'm not directly affiliated with either side that I can form these said opinions.

I agree... as much as they may be sick of war... and afraid of civil war (which is the primary reason I've heard stated by some Lebanese as to why they won't oust Hezbollah)... eventually something's had to eventually get done to remove this rogue group out of power.

Lil Mo · Jul 29, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wildkow @ Jul 28 2006, 10:08 PM) [snapback]294189[/snapback]</div>

Name one agreement/treaty that terrorist have honored.
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April 9, 1865 - Gen. Robert E. Lee surrenders his Confederate Army to Gen. Ulysses S. Grant at the village of Appomattox Court House in Virginia. Grant allows Rebel officers to keep their sidearms and permits soldiers to keep horses and mules.

That agreement has not been broken.

My point is that today it is all too easy to call someone who opposes a government today a "terrorist."

Wildkow · Jul 29, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lil Mo @ Jul 28 2006, 10:19 PM) [snapback]294195[/snapback]</div>

April 9, 1865 - Gen. Robert E. Lee surrenders his Confederate Army to Gen. Ulysses S. Grant at the village of Appomattox Court House in Virginia. Grant allows Rebel officers to keep their sidearms and permits soldiers to keep horses and mules.

That agreement has not been broken.

My point is that today it is all too easy to call someone who opposes a government today a "terrorist."
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That happened only because the North militarly whooped their asses. Not because of some other process. What most are talking about here is halting this total nice person whooping with peace-keepers and treaties. Dumb move as this last assault by Hezbolla proves. Useless UN Peace-keepers for the last 6 years have stood by while the terrorist brought in 13,000+ rockets and set them up all over the countryside. The Lebanese people stood by and didn't do so much as drop a dime. The Civil War would still be going on today if the UN had been involved. BTW no historian of that period would label the south as terrorist.

Wildkow

mssmith95 · Jul 29, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lil Mo @ Jul 28 2006, 10:19 PM) [snapback]294195[/snapback]</div>

My point is that today it is all too easy to call someone who opposes a government today a "terrorist."
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Are you serious? You may be right in some circumstances...but your post is way off base when discussing Hezbollah...unless you mean "someone who opposes any non-Islamic radical government"!

Hezbollah was created out of pure hatred...and has continued with the sole purpose of eliminating all others who do not believe as they do.

If they did not have the Israeli's to fight, they would be fighting the Christians or other muslims!

The civil war? Oh ya, I remember when the Confederates were strapping bundles of gun powder to their wagons and blowing up civilians in suicide missions. Good comparison.

Mirza · Jul 29, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mssmith95 @ Jul 29 2006, 12:35 AM) [snapback]294178[/snapback]</div>

Second, of course there are some American flags in the crowd...there were 25,000 americans in Lebanon before this all started!

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Respectfully,

I know the difference very well between the accent of a Lebanese American and a Lebanese speaking English. The guy yelling "We love America" was a Lebanese... not an American. I know more than enough to know exactly how these Lebanese feel about democracy and freedom.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mssmith95 @ Jul 29 2006, 02:44 AM) [snapback]294211[/snapback]</div>

lieve as they do.

If they did not have the Israeli's to fight, they would be fighting the Christians or other muslims!

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Sorry, but this is bull. I've provided plenty of reasons among other threads why I think so. There are plenty of Arab Christians out there... and save from the spattering of a few terrorist groups, they get along. Christians make up 40% of the Lebanese population.

Source: https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/le.html

Respectfully, it's pretty clear to me where your biases are.

mssmith95 · Jul 29, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mirza @ Jul 29 2006, 04:46 AM) [snapback]294252[/snapback]</div>

Respectfully,

I know the difference very well between the accent of a Lebanese American and a Lebanese speaking English. The guy yelling "We love America" was a Lebanese... not an American. I know more than enough to know exactly how these Lebanese feel about democracy and freedom.
Sorry, but this is bull. I've provided plenty of reasons among other threads why I think so. There are plenty of Arab Christians out there... and save from the spattering of a few terrorist groups, they get along. Christians make up 40% of the Lebanese population.

Source: https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/le.html

Respectfully, it's pretty clear to me where your biases are.
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Are you sure about the accent. I was born here, have lived here all of my life...but studied Spanish in Mexico and lived their for a few summers. When I speak spanish, people from Mexico are convinced that I am Mexican. You could have been born here and then lived there your entire life...and you would have no american accent. We agree that some of the Lebanese feel this way...but you can not paint them all with a broad stroke, because obviously they do not all feel this way.

Hey the Shites and Sunni were also getting along is Iraq, but they were always one incident away from going after each other again (and now they are killing 100 people a day!).

It was in 2005, that the last major assasination happened in Lebanon. It was in 1990 that the civil unrest calmed down. This is not that long ago...and throughout Lebanon's history, there has been turmoil...so it makes it really easy to figure that the turmoil will come about again.

The government isn't even a true democracy...it is a series of agreements between groups which guarantees that certain positions go to certain religions to try to "force" balance and "cool" tensions. These agreements have help so far, but like Iraq, they are just one incident away from falling apart.

How would we like it if the President here had to be a Christian, the VP a Catholic, the Sec of State, a Jew? How is it a true democracy when you are not really choosing your leaders from an "open" pool of candidates.

Yes, by biases are clear -

ALL TERRORISTS NEED TO BE ELIMINATED OR NEUTRALIZED

ALL THOSE WHO SYMPATHIZE, HARBOR, OR ALLOW TERRORISTS TO OPERATE ARE NOT INNOCENT BYSTANDERS

These statements go for any part of the world...not just this conflict.

I am not a Bush supporter...but I strongly agree with his policy - "You are either with us or against us" when it comes to terrorism. I mean, how good can a people be to allow a group to co-exist in their country who has and wants to kill civilians? If they want to prove to the world that they are "innocent" and "good" people, then they need to clean their own house, instead of having to have Israel and the UN do it for them.

Mirza,

I have been meaning to tease you about your Avatar too...

Isn't that a picture of a disproportionate response? I am surprised that you support that kind of reaction!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Wildkow · Jul 29, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mssmith95 @ Jul 28 2006, 11:44 PM) [snapback]294211[/snapback]</div>

The civil war? Oh ya, I remember when the Confederates were strapping bundles of gun powder to their wagons and blowing up civilians in suicide missions. Good comparison.
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OMG! Your older than dirt! :lol:

Wildkow

mssmith95 · Jul 30, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wildkow @ Jul 29 2006, 06:37 PM) [snapback]294436[/snapback]</div>

OMG! Your older than dirt! :lol:

Wildkow
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Not quite...but with a 3 1/2 year old, a 6 year old, and a wife battling brain/breast cancer, I sure feel that old!

Wildkow · Jul 30, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mssmith95 @ Jul 29 2006, 11:52 PM) [snapback]294531[/snapback]</div>

Not quite...but with a 3 1/2 year old, a 6 year old, and a wife battling brain/breast cancer, I sure feel that old!
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Prayers and good thoughts coming your way.

Wildkow

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