Lexus EV conspiracy theories

Discussion in 'EV (Electric Vehicle) Discussion' started by hkmb, Sep 6, 2021.

  1. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    The Specialty Equipment Market Association (SEMA) show will show what is available after-market and often includes 'concept' cars. Perhaps this Lexus is an engineering or preproduction prototype. It really doesn't matter to this Tesla owner due to hideous grill and low specs.

    Bob Wilson
     
  2. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Since it's for sale in China and Europe, it ain't a prototype.

    At least this wasn't so poorly done that Toyota cancelled it before selling it.
     
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  3. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Yup, for the most part. That's what we have seen in the past... rollout is spec'd to only appeal to a particular audience. Those interested in that particular market are who they are specifically targeted. It's an effective method of getting meaningful feedback from ordinary consumers while at the same time satisfying some type of mandate. That's a level of research some automakers don't bother with.
     
    #23 john1701a, Sep 7, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2021
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  4. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    What audience was Toyota targeting with the iQ EV?
     
  5. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

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    Those that wanted to spend more money to get lower specs?
     
  6. hkmb

    hkmb Senior Member

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    Audi called. They want their marketing strategy back.

    As Trollbait says, it's on sale.

    Here's the UK price list. Lexus UX 300e Price List | Lexus UK

    It starts at £41,745, which is a lot for what it is. The Nissan Leaf, with similar space, better range and better specs (but less luxury) and TWO (count 'em) seat-back pockets starts at £25,995. The Q4 e-tron (similar prestige brand, much better range, much better specs, much more space, and TWO seat-back pockets) starts at £40,750.

    That makes sense, as long as no-one is actually paying full price.

    So would you assume that no-one will be paying those list prices?

    I suppose almost no-one ever actually bought a Mitsubishi i-MIEV.
     
    #26 hkmb, Sep 7, 2021
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  7. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Nope, its a roll of the dice. Ironically, those who say Toyota is unwilling to take risks turn a blind-eye to such a gamble.

    Again, we have seen this play out already. Toyota has won the crapshoot a number of times now.

    It has been fascinating to witness. I had no idea that complimenting my engineering major with a business minor would prepare me for watching what I studied firsthand.
     
  8. hkmb

    hkmb Senior Member

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    Really?

    I just can't imagine the circumstances under which anyone would say, "I want to spend a bit more than £40,000 on an EV. But I don't want the sort of range that every other EV that costs more than £25,000 offers. I don't want to be able to use a satnav to find a charging station, and I definitely don't want to spend less than an hour at a charging station once I've found one. I don't need door bins, and one rear seat pocket should be enough. I want less space and less practicality than any other car in this price range or the next one down. And I'd like it to look like a 2010 Chery or Geely."

    The only people I can imagine doing that would be the sort of people who used to buy Rovers in the town I grew up in in Britain: very old people who were just not interested in cars. And they're not the people who will provide any useful feedback.

    You'd need people who know about and are interested in cars if you want useful feedback. And no-one who knows about or is interested in cars could seriously be interested in this one.

    Like I said, I think it makes sense as a real-world test bed if it's loaned out free or at a nominal cost to Lexus loyalists or government or corporate fleets, but I cannot imagine who would actually buy it.

    If it is being actually sold at full price to the gullible, then the theory that it's been built to intentionally discredit the idea of BEVs does have some credibility.
     
  9. hkmb

    hkmb Senior Member

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    People who say, "I like the way my washing machine looks, but I want one that is much more expensive and will take me to a shop that is not too far away and doesn't sell anything big"?

    -------

    Honestly, I liked the IQ. I thought it was brave and interesting. I always thought it made more sense as an EV than an ICE car.

    And I like the super-cheap Chinese EVs with a similar size and range. They serve a useful purpose as an urban commuter vehicle.
     
  10. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Lease.
     
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  11. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    A lease means the initial depreciation is gone when then car goes for sale, end-of-lease.

    Bob Wilson
     
  12. hkmb

    hkmb Senior Member

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    Yes, but surely not at market rates?
     
  13. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Know your audience.

    Consider why so many in the past were willing to pay a premium to "Think Different".
     
  14. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Honda did a lease only Fit EV in 11 states for data gathering. Not sure what other data a luxury brand will garner that can't be learned from market research.
    Is the Lexus imported? That can have a big impact on the list price.

    What about prices in China? That is its first, and real, market.
     
  15. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    The ironic part of all of this is the narrative of "EV market" has become so normalized, people have lost touch with actual business need.

    Sure, you could purchase something seemingly better, but it was really false hope. In other words, those other legacy choices were being sold at a loss. Look at Bolt. We got a very clear statement from GM, which in itself is quite a departure, pointing out in would never be profitable.

    So, seeing Toyota test the waters with pricing shouldn't be a surprise. Reuse of existing well-proven technology to achieve that is a practice everyone seems to have forgotten about... especially coming from a source who has mastered continous improvement.

    Why not try that while its replacement is still being finalized?
     
  16. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

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    What shouldn’t be a surprise is your constant skill in acrobatics.

    Toyota prices a vehicle higher than competitors is a good thing.
    Competitor prices a car higher than average, it’s an awful thing that show weakness/failure.

    Competitor makes a four seater, massive failure!
    Toyota makes four seater, it’s a wonderful adaptation!

    It all seems to come down to if Toyota does it, it is good. If someone else does it, it is shortsighted or bad.
     
  17. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    If the Bolt was selling at a loss, why make it worse with $5000 price cut with the new model?
     
  18. dbstoo

    dbstoo Active Member

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    Don't ya just love conspiracy theory threads?

    We have grumbling about poor range for a car being sold in England, which is a small country; about 300 miles from end to end. Start the day with a full battery and a single partial charge will get you the rest of the way.

    There's moaning about the appearance, even though the reviewer likes the looks. With all the stupid looking cars I see every day, the Lexus is above average.

    There's all sorts of assertions that Toyota has limited BEVs because they can't get batteries. But if you look around, Toyota, by way of it's part ownership of Panasonic, is a major supplier of Li-ion batteries to other car companies. Like Tesla. :)

    All sorts of folks throw around the "compliance car" term as if it were some major insult. Do they even have the concept of compliance designs over there? I sincerely doubt that CARB (the originator of the concept in modern use) cares what cars sell in England so that phrase hardly applies.

    John speaks the most clearly. I, too, have been involved in projects designed solely to determine if a goal can be reached with current technology and processes. Even worse were the projects where the VP said, "Marketing studies show that people will pay $5.00 a month for this feature. Implement it with a cost of less than $3 per user per month." Yet he's written off as being an apologist.


    Here's my contribution to the conspiracies involved.

    The purpose of this forum is to spread falsehoods and doubt about Toyota products. The main posters on the forum are investors in the BEV industry, so stand to gain from mud slinging and shouting louder than others. Some are apologetically Tesla Fanboys. Others are haters of all things Toyota.

    Of course, I could be wrong. The naysayers could simply be employed by the existing car industry and they are just afraid that their jobs are at stake. After the mainstream car companies issued their proclamations of abandoning the awful ICE, it is embarrassing to read that PHEVs do what a BEV will at half the price and twice the capabilities.

    :)
     
  19. dbstoo

    dbstoo Active Member

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    The answer is so obvious even the the fanboys should see it. Once GM declared that the BOLT is the future of the company, it looks bad that they are not being snapped up as quickly as the sedans that GM killed off a couple of years back. After all, low sales volumes tend to be bad for the stock market.
     
  20. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    It isn't being sold in just England, and some competitors in the same price range can make that trip without stopping.

    What a ridiculous assertion. Are you claiming Panasonic wouldn't be around without Toyota, or just that Panasonic only makes automotive batteries for cars because of Toyota?

    Do you think California is the only market with an EV mandate? Did you forget about China? The market which requires a car manufacturer to sell some BEVs, with the rest being hybrids, in the near future. The market where UX300e first went on sale. Many European countries have their own forms of EV mandates too.

    How does this Lexus fit then? Isthis to say how many people are willing to over pay? Johm asserts most will go as under valued leases.

    Where is the evidence that GM is selling below cost?
     
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