1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

Featured Li-ion 10 minute charge - 200 - 300 miles / 2,500 life cycle

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by vvillovv, Nov 3, 2019.

  1. vvillovv

    vvillovv Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2013
    3,493
    1,231
    1
    Location:
    NY
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    In and out with 10-minute electrical vehicle recharge | Penn State University

    New developments in charging Lithium cells shows that heating the batteries to 140 F for 10 minutes than rapidly cooling to ambient temps allows for 200 to 300 miles of range with a battery life expectancy of 2,500 cycles or the equivalent of 500,000 miles.

    Also mentioned in the study, fast charging of Lithium cells below 50 F produces lithium spikes on the anode, reducing cell capacity.
    https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/10-minute-charge-evs-hit-170000497.html
     
  2. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    107,571
    48,862
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    its exciting to see what may be coming down the road. imagine a 500 mile battery with 5 minute charging at any gas station?
     
    bostonbruins8703 likes this.
  3. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2005
    19,605
    8,036
    54
    Location:
    Montana & Nashville, TN
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    IV
    2500 charging Cycles has to translate out over 10 years as well. When they remain silent on the length of durability? It makes one Wonder. No one wants to drive 100's of miles each & every day to be able to achieve the same results. Then there's cost ....
    .
     
    salyavin likes this.
  4. dig4dirt

    dig4dirt MoonGlow

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2012
    1,150
    741
    0
    Location:
    Lancaster Co PA
    Vehicle:
    2014 Prius c
    Model:
    Two
    What confuses me is why they use both F and C in the same article.

    So, another 20-50 years of R&D and might figure something out?
     
  5. vvillovv

    vvillovv Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2013
    3,493
    1,231
    1
    Location:
    NY
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Plus
  6. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    27,068
    15,372
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    The Tesla battery management heats for charging and cools for operation.

    Bob Wilson
     
  7. Dimitrij

    Dimitrij Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2015
    405
    202
    0
    Location:
    Virginia
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    That's great; what kind of a cable and other hardware would be needed to charge @ 300-450 kW?

    What does it do when it toggles between "discharge" and "regen" during normal driving?
     
  8. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    27,068
    15,372
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    Here are my sources:







    I recommend playing them under YouTube so you can set the playback speed fast. Regardless, the common observations:
    1. Tesla battery management system (BMS) adds heat to the battery when charging. This includes using the motors as coolant heat sources that are pumped through the battery.
    2. BMS reduces heat in the battery during operation.
    Bob Wilson
     
  9. Dimitrij

    Dimitrij Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2015
    405
    202
    0
    Location:
    Virginia
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    I have attempted to watch a few of Nyland's vids, and I know exactly what you mean :cool:
     
    #9 Dimitrij, Nov 4, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2019
  10. noonm

    noonm Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2019
    575
    595
    0
    Location:
    NJ
    Vehicle:
    2018 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    Because science is almost exclusively done in Celsius, but the press release is for the US public so it has to be in Fahrenheit for them to understand.
     
    salyavin and Dimitrij like this.
  11. Dimitrij

    Dimitrij Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2015
    405
    202
    0
    Location:
    Virginia
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    The irony of this situation that for the International System of Units (SI) the Celsius is as frivolous a unit of measurement as the Fahrenheit, the official one for temperature being the Kelvin :)
     
  12. Ronald Doles

    Ronald Doles Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2019
    230
    280
    0
    Location:
    Columbus, OH
    Vehicle:
    2015 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    Two
    I saw an interesting vehicle that I believe was built by A123. They introduced a hybrid vehicle that used a combination of super capacitors + batteries. Not sure what happened to that test vehicle which I believe that they were shopping to the big automakers. A123 just offers low voltage systems today. This was a few years ago and maybe the technology wasn't quite ready yet.

    Super caps can be charged or discharged almost instantaneously but they don't have the energy density of batteries. Batteries have a higher energy density but are limited in how fast they can be charged or discharged. The test vehicle had a management system to use the best features of both super caps and batteries.

    With Prius, regenerative braking is proportional to brake pedal pressure up to a battery limit of about 110 amps. More pedal pressure than the 110 amps results in more friction braking for the additional braking force so energy is lost in harder stops.

    With this system, during regenerative braking, the inverter could pump up the batteries like it normally does but it would also pump up the caps to high voltages and then the inverter can discharge the caps into the batteries at a safe lower rate that is acceptable for the batteries. The combined system would capture more of the energy than just using batteries alone.

    During vehicle acceleration, the caps could also provide high instantaneous current to the motors whereas the internal resistance of batteries limits them. In the case of our Prius the most that I have seen on my ScanGauge is around 110 amps. This system could yield a vehicle with faster acceleration.

    The technology might also shorten charging times for EV's and PHEV's as the battery charging would continue even after unplugging the vehicle as the capacitors and batteries equalize.

    This system would add more complexity to an already complex system but if efficiency or performance are improved, it may be the next step.
     
  13. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    21,595
    11,220
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    There is R&D going on for cooled cables.

    There is a temperature range at which the battery is efficient at both charging and discharging. Both of those processes heat up the battery, so it needs to be cooled when a BEV is driven. Well, most of the time. A winter drive with a lot of 'idling' might require heating the battery.

    When charging, the battery had likely cooled off to below the optimal temperature, so the system will heat it up. It will also cool it if the conditions require it.

    Mazda's iEloop regen system uses a super cap. It is for non-hybrids, so it is sized to match the limited captured energy from the alternator.
     
    Dimitrij likes this.
  14. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2005
    19,605
    8,036
    54
    Location:
    Montana & Nashville, TN
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    IV
    ah yes - A123 .... speaking of painful memories, Billy Crystal's character, "Miracle Max" once said;

    any way - long ago we we're believers in their product, but when they went bankrupt, we lost our shirts. iirc, their remnants were bought up by a Chinese subsidiary & that business line is doing okay with power storage in large applications such as blackout prevention, similar to Tesla.
    .
     
  15. 3PriusMike

    3PriusMike Prius owner since 2000, Tesla M3 2018

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2009
    2,933
    2,286
    0
    Location:
    Silicon Valley
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    There could be a lot of choices. When Tesla superchargers went from version 2 (125-150 kw) to version 3 (250 kw) the cable got smaller

    According to the company, the cable is “significantly lighter, more flexible, and more efficient” than their current air-cooled cable found on the V2 Superchargers.

    Tesla launches new Supercharger with 1,000 mph charging, better efficiency, and more - Electrek

    There is a picture at the link of the cables

    Mike
     
    Dimitrij likes this.
  16. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2009
    13,525
    4,057
    0
    Location:
    Austin, TX, USA
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    N/A
    StoreDot: Nanotechnology With Novel Organic Compounds Here is a battery demoed in a scooter that can charge in 5 minutes. It uses a different chemistry to do this safely. They hope to have a factory built in 2022 to build batteries for cell phones and cars. The technology is here to do that, the question is cost compared to current leader tesla/panasonic packs built with regular lion chemistry 2170 and liquid cooling. I doubt these solutions will be in cars 5 years from now, but I expect them in 10 years.

    I think tesla model 3 may do what penn state is outlining partially on the v3 (250KW) superchargers.

    Yep another possibility of many that may be the next battery. The big problems with solid state are longevity and cost. I'm sure they can produce prototypes next year, but most figure 2025 at the earliest to bring costs down. Toyota's partner panasonic said 10 years last year (2028), but definitely might be less expensive to make than the 2021 mirai ;-)

    Combo plug (CCS) are the only ones built commercially so far. At 400 V 400KW is 1000A, which is not that high for power applications. These cables are liquid cooled though.
     
    #16 austingreen, Nov 4, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2019
  17. Dimitrij

    Dimitrij Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2015
    405
    202
    0
    Location:
    Virginia
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    It's amazing how much Tesla has done to make the BEV a bona fide commercial product. It's even more amazing how little some other manufacturers have done. Still more amazing is that the likes of the Leaf and the i3 still come with with a $7,500.00 tax rebate and Teslas don't ... As they say, Mind boggles.
     
    3PriusMike and austingreen like this.
  18. noonm

    noonm Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2019
    575
    595
    0
    Location:
    NJ
    Vehicle:
    2018 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    Yeah, technically true as Kelvin means you're always using positive numbers. However, in practice I've found that scientists generally talk/measure in Celsius (for temps above freezing) and then convert to Kelvin (which is easy by just adding 273.15).

    Now, if you really want to be a masochists, start measuring temperature in Rankine :)
     
    Dimitrij likes this.
  19. Dimitrij

    Dimitrij Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2015
    405
    202
    0
    Location:
    Virginia
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    I have found out that the temperature stays the same whether you measure it in F's, C's or do not measure it at all. So, why even bother :D
     
  20. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    27,068
    15,372
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    Regardless, my wife finds it too cold and I find it too hot.

    Bob Wilson
     
    3PriusMike, vvillovv and Dimitrij like this.