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LiBSU - Redesigning the "Battery Support Unit" to Support Lithium

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Technical Discussion' started by mudder, Jun 7, 2024.

  1. mudder

    mudder Member

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    Background:
    1: I apologize in advance for any incorrect vernacular specific to the Prius. I'm a (passionate) G1 Honda Insight owner, who prior to today had never been inside a Gen3 Prius. Prior to last night I'd never even studied the wiring diagram... so I'm bound to get some terms wrong.

    2: I designed and sell a replacement computer that allows the G1 Honda Insight to safely use modern lithium traction batteries. My long term vision is to eventually offer a similar computer for the various NiMH Prius models, starting with Gen3. For now I'm going to call it 'LiBSU' because it replaces the OEM "Battery Smart Unit".

    3: Note that I'm well aware that NexCell exists; theoretically the (unreleased) LiBSU hardware is actually compatible with those lithium modules (e.g. by removing the PCB inside each NexCell module, and then connecting a wire harness from LiBSU to each NexCell wire harness). However, I don't intend to commercialize that solution, as NMC lithium has much higher energy density than LFP.

    4: LiBSU isn't my top priority right now... it's a parallel side passion to an overgrown hobby project. I'm essentially retired, although I'll never stop tinkering. Expect infrequent updates over the next several months. For example, I don't intend to gather anymore data for a few weeks, as I'm leaving for vacation next week. Eventually LiBSU will exist "when it's ready", but until then it won't.

    ...

    Below are my first impressions regarding adding lithium to the Gen3 Prius hybrid system:
    A: I should only need to replace the "Battery Support Unit", which is surprisingly simple... all it does is monitor cell voltages, battery current, four temperature sensors, and test for HVDC isolation faults.
    B: The BSU has a differential (RS-485?) serial bus. Looks like there are QTY10 frames per second, with nothing too difficult to decode (of course this will take time). On the PHY, we have an A-B diff pair operating between 1.5 (low) and 3.5 (high) volts.
    C: Looks like we'll need QTY60 NMC lithium cells to approximate the OEM QTY168 NiMH cell voltage range.
    D: The BSU is much smaller than I thought it would be... cramming QTY60 ADC channels into the OEM steel enclosure might not be possible, but there's certainly plenty of additional room with a replacement outer enclosure. Space is still going to be tight, but I know it's possible.
    E: For now, I intend to place all BMS circuitry on the LiBSU PCB, rather than on distributed PCBs attached to each module. This makes it easier to switch between different batteries... of course, it also increases the replacement BMS wire harness cost. I'm willing to use distributed PCBs if we can find a large source of "fits-like-a-glove" lithium modules from another car. I have a few leads on this, but not worth thinking about now; designing LiBSU is agnostic to the actual lithium cell/chemistry used.
    F: I was surprised to deduce that the OEM BMS wire harness uses RED/RED wire for HVDC-, and BLK/BLK wire for HVDC+... not the first time I've seen this, but ok. Also was surprised that the service disconnect plug doesn't cut the pack in half... QTY4 NiMH pairs on the bottom end and QTY10 on the top end.
    G: On the BSU's 8p 'serial' connector, I wasn't able to determine what the 2.66 VDC signal was used for. It certainly had an 'intentional' voltage ramp at keyOn, but otherwise it was always 2.66 VDC.
    H: From a hardware perspective, deriving LiBSU from my existing LiBCM design is trivially easy. In fact, I should be able to prototype a functional prototype with an LiBCM PCB. It won't fit mechanically, but I'm sure I won't be the first person to drive a Prius without the rear seats installed ;).
    J: I'll certainly be able to use LiBCM to 'sniff' boatloads of serial data from OEM BSU. Decoding this data will certainly take time, but nothing jumped out as 'impossible' during my cursory inspection. Notably, I have all the information required to design the RevA PCB.

    Overall, I don't anticipate any major headaches deriving LiBSU from my existing LiBCM project.

    ...

    So what is LiBSU?
    -A drop-in replacement computer that allows a Gen3 NiMH Prius to safely use a lithium traction battery, and;
    -built-in level 1 (~1500 watts) PHEV charger (copied directly from existing LiBCM design), and;
    -built-in advanced diagnostics via USB. Of course, anything Dr.Prius can presently access will continue to work, too... but you'll need to use USB to read all QTY60 cell voltages (because the OEM system only supports QTY14 channels).

    Thanks for reading. Please let me know if I got anything wrong. Y'all are the domain experts. I'm open to any and all LiBSU-related conversations. Grab your popcorn and let's discuss.
     
    #1 mudder, Jun 7, 2024
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2024
    Fred_H, whitrzac, ericbecky and 4 others like this.
  2. TMR-JWAP

    TMR-JWAP Senior Member

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    @mudder,

    looking forward to reading about this, and hopefully one day see a good control system developed to allow it in a Gen 2.
     
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  3. mudder

    mudder Member

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    Gen2 is on the roadmap, after Gen3. The modifications are trivial; primarily the OEM serial bus PHY is different, but otherwise the architecture is the same. Gen2 should ship shortly after Gen3... but Gen3 is going to take a while, as I outlined in my original post.
     
  4. Grit

    Grit Senior Member

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    My gen 3 original hv batt will eventually need to be replaced. From what I’ve read on this sub forum, I’m leaning on your hv battery chemistry for replacement (y)
     
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  5. mudder

    mudder Member

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    Thanks for your support!

    Hopefully your existing traction battery can hang in there for at least several more months...
    ...even though I'm deriving LiBSU from an existing project (LiBCM), properly engineered products take time.
     
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  6. Grit

    Grit Senior Member

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    About not being the first one driving without back seats, I’ve been doing that for years since I purchased the vehicle. The hv pack cools down faster as I used to park in the open sun for 8 hours a day for years at work. At one point I macgiver’d a fryer flexible hose from the passenger vent directly to the hv air intake to help cool down.
     
  7. mudder

    mudder Member

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    Minor update:
    Today I deciphered the BSU's differential serial frame structure. Decoding the frame order is going to take some time, but I should be able to man-in-the-middle the existing data with my prototype hardware fairly soon. I should also be able to do some rudimentary deciphering on the bench... I'll probably have the "happy path" worked out before I actually test in the car (I still don't own one, but a fellow Chattanoogan I met does). I'll then need to artificially induce numerous hardware faults to figure out how to properly transmit "something is borked" signals.

    After I decode the serial bus, the rest is pretty straight forward:
    -the actual BMS electronics are essentially copy-pasted from my existing Honda Insight design, and;
    -I need to select a suitable donor lithium pack, but that's ultimately a function of mechanical fitment. Already have a few ideas on which modules I'll recommend, but no public comment until I'm 100% certain (lest someone purchase a pack that I don't ultimately use), and;
    -eventually I'll need to redesign my existing LiBCM circuit board so that it fits inside the OEM BSU enclosure. I looked inside a Gen2 Prius pack last week and was surprised how much larger the BSU is versus Gen3.

    As I wrote in my initial post, I don't presently have any timeline regarding when LiBSU is available for purchase... certainly not any time soon, as this isn't my top priority right now. This is a passion project, plus I'm retired (but will never stop working).
     
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  8. whitrzac

    whitrzac Junior Member

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    Awesome!
    I loved all the mods available when I had my insight and was pretty disappointed at the lack of 3rd party options for the prius.
     
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  9. rjparker

    rjparker Tu Humilde Sirviente

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    As you may be aware, Toyota sold a gen3 1.0 kWh lithium-ion pack for at least the Prius v wagon hybrid to the rest of the world except North America until 2021. Overseas they were sold as Prius α (pronounced as Alpha) and Prius+.

    In those implementations they installed the lithium-ion pack in the console space between the seats and obviously had a proper bms. They used the rear space for a third row. Some NiMH two row cars were also sold in Japan along with the lithium-ion version.

    The Prius Plug In hatchback had a 4.4kwh lithium ion and was sold in the US starting with the 2012 model year.

    In the US, the 1.3kwh standard hybrid NiMH battery assemblies with ecu are interchangeable in 2010-15 Prius (Prii) hatchbacks and 2012-17 Prius v’s.

    IMG_5476.jpeg IMG_5477.jpeg

    Plug-in
    IMG_5478.jpeg
     
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