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Market Collapse: Detroit 3 count on fleet sales to move minivans

Discussion in 'Other Cars' started by cwerdna, Jan 6, 2007.

  1. cwerdna

    cwerdna Senior Member

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    http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/arti...1024/LATESTNEWS

    Apparently, the Sienna and Odyssey are still doing ok. It's really too bad that this is collapsing market. Minivans are a lot less evil than SUVs. They have lots of room, can hold a big family, don't guzzle as much gas They're also lighter than the oversized/huge SUVs (5000+ lb. curb weights to me are overweight and oversized) that people have been shifting to so they're less harmful to other drivers in accidents.

    Looking at some minivans, it looks like Chrysler/Dodge ones top out at 4339 lbs for stretched passenger models, the heaviest Odyssey tops out at 4678, and the Sienna tops out at 4464 for an AWD Sienna.

    Compare that to 5529 lbs for a 4WD Tahoe, 5607 to 6327 lbs for a Suburban, 5524 lbs for a 4WD Yukon, and 5607 to 6327 for Yukon XLs.
     
    #1 cwerdna, Jan 6, 2007
  2. paprius4030

    paprius4030 My first Prius

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    Maybe it's because Ford and GM's mini-vans aren't so MINI anymore. The small wheel base Caravan still hauls around 7 people while being relatively inexpensive to buy, compared to the others. Now if Chrysler had a 4 cyl. engine that got really good fuel economy too now you'd have something. And if only Chrysler could come up with a hybrid version. Chrysler needs a young Lee Iaocca with a vision.
     
    #2 paprius4030, Jan 6, 2007
  3. Godiva

    Godiva AmeriKan Citizen

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    I'm hoping the reason is that they're desigining a replacement that will be a hybrid MiniVan, based on the talks they 've had with Toyota about leasing more technology.
     
    #3 Godiva, Jan 6, 2007
  4. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    The minivans aren't exactly mini any more.

    What we should be looking forward to is the mini MPVs such as the Mazda5/Premacy, Toyota Corolla Verso, Vauxhall Zafira, Renault Grand Scénic, Honda FR-V, Citroën C4 Picasso, Ford S-Max and so forth.

    If you're not familiar with these, just think of the 1st generation Honda Odyssey with 6 passengers and 4 doors. However, some of those above seat 7 and have sliding doors.
     
    #4 Tideland Prius, Jan 7, 2007
  5. cwerdna

    cwerdna Senior Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tideland Prius @ Jan 7 2007, 01:00 AM) [snapback]372001[/snapback]</div>
    Just because it seats 7 doesn't mean it's automatically huge. I used to have a 93 Dodge Caravan. It could either seat 5 or 7 if you paid extra for the 3rd row of seats even though it wasn't the extended length version (Grand Caravan). The previous gen (and maybe even the 1st gen) was the same way.

    It was shorter than the other cars we had at the time, an 4 cylinder 86 Olds Cutlass Ciera and a 91 Toyota Camry. You can see from http://www.edmunds.com/used/1993/dodge/car...7922/specs.html, it was only 178 inches long making it shorter than say the 02 Nissan Maxima I used to have which was 191.5 inches.

    BTW, out of all the models you list above, we only get the Mazda5. Renault hasn't sold in the US in ages and Vauxhall was just the UK brand for Opel.
     
    #5 cwerdna, Jan 14, 2007
  6. fshagan

    fshagan Senior Member

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    Our Toyota Sienna mini van got a respectable 22 MPG on my daily commute; my Ford Sporttrac "SUT" gets 17 MPG. Same commute, same driving style, and I get 47.5 MPG in my Prius. We kept the Sporttrac because of the boat, but it gets driven for a short commute only.

    My daughter bought a Mazda 5 for their growing family, and its a great little car. It would be wonderful as a hybrid. More families would buy that type of vehicle.

    The SUV category is also popular because they can actually tow things; most passenger cars in the US are not rated to tow anything at all, unlike sedans in Europe that list tow weights. Anyone with a boat, camper or trailer has to buy either a full sized pickup or a SUV, and for families that can't afford multiple vehicles, the SUV wins the "most versatile" award (mileage is about the same).
     
    #6 fshagan, Jan 14, 2007
  7. cwerdna

    cwerdna Senior Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ Jan 14 2007, 10:23 AM) [snapback]375515[/snapback]</div>
    Do you mean by "anything" that passenger car towing ratings are low or 0 or not listed ? If you're claiming 0 or not listed, you're definitely wrong on that. Even my Nissan 350Z is rated to tow 1000 lbs and so was my former 02 Nissan Maxima. In looking at the owner's manuals for the 02 Altima and 03 G35, they also are rated at 1000 lbs.

    Looking at http://www-5.dodge.com/vehsuite/TowingGuide.jsp, you can see towing capacities as well. I looked a a couple Stratuses and they're rated at 1000 lbs. Caravans seem to be rated at 1800 lbs. Chargers seem to be rated for 2000 lbs. A quick peek under the capacities tab of http://www.toyota.com/corolla/specs.html shows that even the Corolla is rated for 1500 lbs. From http://www.toyota.com/sienna/specs.html, the Sienna is rated for 3500 lbs.

    But yes, anyone w/a large boat, camper or heavy trailer pretty much needs an SUV or pickup.

    When you say "mileage is about the same", what are you comparing? Large SUVs (curb weights of 5000+ lbs) like Armadas, Expeditions, Tahoes, Yukons, Suburbans and the like get very poor mileage compared to passenger cars. If you're comparing your 22 to 17 mpg, that's ~30% difference, which is not "about the same" in my book.
     
    #7 cwerdna, Jan 14, 2007
  8. chogan

    chogan New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ Jan 14 2007, 01:23 PM) [snapback]375515[/snapback]</div>
    Couldn't agree more. We looked over the field after my car died last fall, and bought a Mazda5 because it looked like the most efficient car around that could haul six. (Altough, if you go by EPA, the most fuel-efficient way to haul six is to use two Prii.) So far so good, we're way beating the EPA, with the 5-speed manual transmission, but we haven't put 1000 miles on it yet.

    The earlier comment about minivans not being so mini any more was about right in our experience. Looked at the Ford Freestyle -- not a minivan as such, but billed as a replacement for a minvan -- but it was huge (by our standards). The Ford dealer just didn't understand what we were talking about, calling that car too big. Mazda bills the 5 as a "micro van", and the nice thing is that it's almost exactly the same footprint as the Prius and has slightly shorter turning radius than the Prius. Plus, by golly, it's great camouflage -- I fit right into the herd in that, as opposed to the Prius.

    But it definitely would be better as a hybrid.

    What I don't get is why Ford doesn't take the excellent Escape hybrid drive train, put a minvan body on it, put the Windstar out of its misery, and be the first on the block with a hybrid minivan. Numerous posters here have asked for one. I'd have bought that in prefernce to the Mazda5, had it been available.
     
    #8 chogan, Jan 14, 2007
  9. fshagan

    fshagan Senior Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(cwerdna @ Jan 14 2007, 01:40 PM) [snapback]375569[/snapback]</div>
    I meant over 2000 pounds, and should have stated it. There are very few boats that, with motor and gear, are under that threshold. Most of the 18' run abouts are 2,200 pounds or so with trailer, motor, boat and other stores. My 18' sailboat is 1,800 bare, and just over 2,000 pounds as towed.

    Mileage between a full size pickup that can tow over 2000 pounds and a SUV is about the same. Most of the Ford 150s get about the same mileage as my Ford Sporttrac ... 17 to 18 MPG. An Explorer will get about 17 MPG (based on my neighbor's comments ... I didn't look any of this up this time, but did research it in the past when buying my Sporttrac). But an Explorer is going to win the "use-ability" contest for a family over a pick up most times.

    The point I was trying to make is that the older sedans were rated for towing; today, if the manufacturer lists a towing capacity, its generally under that 2000 pound threshhold.

    BTW - I'm surprised Toyota says the Corolla can tow 1500 pounds; I would only do so with electric trailer brakes. The Corolla is pretty light to have that much weight pushing it forward when you stop!
     
    #9 fshagan, Jan 14, 2007
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