May Day demonstrations

I may be a liberal but I also believe in "what part of illegal don't you understand"?

I do not believe illegals should have ANY rights. They are not citizens and should not share the rights and benefits of citizens. They should not receive welfare, free health care or financial aid. They should not have driver's licenses or any other LEGAL document issued to citizens and LEGAL immigrants.

We've done the amnesty thing. And what happened? More illegals. Who now want amnesty again.

I'm not saying nothing should be done. We drastically need immigration reform. It is unreasonable to expect someone to wait more than 10 years for a green card. But the revolving door of granting amnesty over and over basically negates any immigration laws we have.

Committing a crime should not be rewarded, excused or negated. Entering this country illegally is a crime. The definition of illegal is against the law. Why should we expect people who have no respect for our laws to have any more respect for them when we GIVE them citizenship?

And it isn't the job of the United States to SAVE THE WORLD.

Oh yeah. And I believe in the death penalty too.

But I still consider myself a liberal.

 

I would argue that since we play a part in the poor economy of Mexico that we should expect their people to want to come to our country and become part of the empire that survives because of extractive systems we develop in other countries to rid them of their resources.

 

The sad part, F8L, is not enough people realize your point. A very good point, one I agree with, but not enough people see our "workings" in other countries just to support our US lifstyle. A lifestyle that ENTIRELY depends on the extraction of resources from poorer countries, using cheap(er) labor, etc. It's yet another 'inconvenient truth' that most US citizens are unwilling (maybe even ignorantly) to see.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ May 1 2007, 10:00 PM) [snapback]433761[/snapback]</div>

When you deny health care to any group of people living inside the country, you increase the chances of an outbreak of infectious disease. This is biting off your nose to spite your face and is just plain stupid public policy.

Since I believe that governments are inherently illegitimate, I reject their right to exclude people from entering the territory those governments claim jurisdiction over.

Further, I reject the right of any group of people to steal land from its occupants, and then deny other people the right to enter. Either we have no right to be here at all, because we stole the land in the first place (except for Long Island, which we purchased with junk jewelry -- essentially counterfeit money) or else we have no right to exclude others from entry.

Finally, even if you take the narrow view that stolen property becomes legitimate with the passage of time, there is still the question of international law with respect to human rights. No nation has the right to deny basic human rights to any person, even if you view that person as a criminal. And access to health care is a basic human right.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(finman @ May 2 2007, 06:23 AM) [snapback]433866[/snapback]</div>

It puts us in a pickle for sure. Do we continue to go around playing emperor or do we legitimately try to help these nations to get back on their feet and play global citizen?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(F8L @ May 2 2007, 02:08 AM) [snapback]433780[/snapback]</div>

We play a part as to why Mexico has a poor economy???? In what way is it partly the US's fault???

Im sure we pay for any resorces we get from mexico.

I would think their Goverment would be the reason for their poor economy, :mellow:

I guess the US Goverment should take 40% of F8L, Daniel & whomever else thinks illegal immagration is ok. Out of each pay check you recieve. to pay for their medicaid & food stamp benifits. better yet give them your home and car, just you will continue to make the payments on them. :lol:

 

1) Bring some of the troops back (how about the ones stationed in Germany and other countries with no need for them) and post them on the borders or make the border areas the areas where troops are trained and stationed so they can fulfill a dual purpose. This might also reduces drug trafficking.
2) Offer a compromise to immigrants already here.
A) Sign up for citenzenship. Those that don't are exported.
B) Partial citizens would pay taxes like the rest of us but the benefits of citizenship would be phased in. They would NEVER be allowed to buy, sell, own, or posess weapons. They would not receive SS benefits for X years, and then 50% benefits 5 years later, and full benefits for 10 years. This would solve the social security shortfall.
C) Expand Medicare to provide basic coverage (ER, Preventative) for all Americans, with existing coverages as supplemental (chemo, transplants, drugs). The immigrants would then have basic coverage and would pay for it through their medicare taxes.

Just my thought on solving this. Feel free to pick away.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Darwood @ May 2 2007, 12:19 PM) [snapback]433997[/snapback]</div>

I can remember going to the ER and waiting 20 mins. Now you wait 1-2 hrs depending on the severity... :angry:

But excelent points there Darwood I can agree with all...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hycamguy07 @ May 2 2007, 09:14 AM) [snapback]433994[/snapback]</div>

I am going to assume from your repsonse that you do not understand how our agricultural and export/import systems work or what roles WTO/World Bank has in them.

 

Let's pay for their benefits by taking over Mexico's oil resources. Hell, let's get the ethanol in Brazil too. If they resist pull the troops out of Iraq and use them to annex mexico. Who ever said there was a time limit for the Monroe Doctrine. Keep pushing till we hit the Strait of Magellan! That will keep the military/oil/police/jail/industrial complex busy for another couple hundred years or so. Yeehaw!

 

The easiest way to solve this problem is to nail the shite out of businesses that hire illegals. Kill the demand and the supply will go away. Of course, we'll have to be prepared to pay much higher prices for all sorts of things. The question is whether we want to do that or not. Money often speaks louder than principles.

So Daniel, why work with that view point? They can have all the health care they want if THEY pay for it. Since they don't pay taxes they're getting a free ride. Sorry, that's not sustainable.

You seem to be a socialist libertarian (not there's anything wrong with that). There seem to be some inconsistencies in that philosophy.

 

Can I, as a non citizen, go to another country and DEMAND anything? Even I, an avowed liberal, respect other cultures enough to visit, enjoy, contribute, but not DEMAND anything. Even though not trained in other languages I TRY my best to speak the native language. I RESPECT the working locals enough to stay out of their way.

However, IMHO it's not the illegal people who are the source of the problem. It's the CORPORATIONS who encourage illegal behavior on all levels who are the real problem. We need to enforce the existing laws and level huge fines to those hiring illegal people. Corporations must be forced to pay a living wage in the countries which they do business. After all, many illegals are forced to flee their homes, families and all they know when they can't make a living at home. Furthermore, by corporations continuing their amoral behavior, they are forcing illegals to migrate here, thereby driving down wages here. At some point in the future, the US will be like Mexico, and citizens will be forced to migrate from here since the downward pressure on wages will sooner or later create the same predicament found in Mexico whereby locals can't afford to feed their families.

The hogwash about paying a living wage will drive up prices is just that, hogwash. Simply limit CEO pay to twice that of the lowest paid worker will free up plenty of money to offset prices.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MarinJohn @ May 2 2007, 10:54 AM) [snapback]434091[/snapback]</div>

Nice post.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hycamguy07 @ May 2 2007, 11:14 AM) [snapback]433994[/snapback]</div>

Well, maybe, if you agree to do the same to pay for the current war.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hycamguy07 @ May 2 2007, 11:14 AM) [snapback]433994[/snapback]</div>

I think it's fairly obvious that we do indeed contribute to this problem, each of us, every day, just by living in the manner in which we do. To not realize this seems a bit naive to me.

On the other hand, my Dad and Mom came from Greece and went through Ellis Island and assimilated and paid taxes and learned English and the customs of this country (while retaining the language and customs and, yes, even religion of their homeland). Further, in the case of my Dad, he worked 'dead end' jobs reserved for uneducated Greeks until he could put himself through college.

My Dad would have been the first to admit that he wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed, too (when I was feeling down about not getting a 4.0 GPA all the way through high school, I remember him telling me about how he got only B's and C's as an undergrad, and how he still did okay). He persevered, made compromises, and then reaped the benefits as time passed.

Somehow I'm just not feeling that this spirt is quite as prevalent as it once was...and as a consequence, I'm really mixed about the 'illegals' question.

I agree that we contribute to the problem as a nation, but I also feel like there is a more than a bit of militant nationalism (for whatever reasons, which we can discuss further if need be) on the part of the illegal aliens. Which, frankly, only serves to harden me **against** their cause.

My Dad, on the other hand, told me that he was **proud** to pay taxes as an American. He really felt that strongly about the Country. If I saw a bit more of this happening during the current protests, I'd probably amend my feelings immediately.

And so, at this moment (stolen land and junk jewelery aside) I fall on the side of 'no healthcare/no rights for illegal aliens, unless there is some sort of adjunct citizenship made available for them (with ID cards, registration, etc. and their payment --no matter how small-- into the system).

I'm willing to pay more for all of the crap I buy and don't really need...if it means that, as a Country, we can one day make a decision on issues like this without feeling guilty about contributing to them in the way we do now.

I wish we could vote on a decision like that! (not likely, though, I don't think)

Once again, as in our oil wars, I believe that we, as a Nation, need to make some internal changes and modify our economy/our personal behaviour, to further our own cause...my hope is that this will, one day, increase our options when we're faced with difficult issues like the one we're discussing currently.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hycamguy07 @ May 2 2007, 09:14 AM) [snapback]433994[/snapback]</div>

I never once stated it was ok did I?

I said we should expect it because of our behavior as a nation and our economic structure. There is no easy fix for this till we change how we think and do business with the rest of the world.

 

The problems in Georgia are unbelievable. It has happened in record time.

Our hospitals are deteriorating under the burden of illegals not paying anything for care. The rest of us who have been here (paying taxes and insurance we can't afford) are waiting in line behind illegals with a head cold at the ER. The illegals give false names and addresses, and they get free care.

The rest of us get HUGE bills (bigger than before the illegals) and they will go after you if you don't pay every last dime.

One can barely get ER care because that is where the illegals go for minor things instead of a clinic or doctor's office.

There is a reason Insurance premiums have doubled in the last 2 years.


The companies that hire them should have to pay for clinics and care for these folks. They should also pay for citizenship if these folks are so valuable. The path to citizenship should not be quite so difficult, if someone can prove they are not a criminal and have something to contribute.

There are a multitude of reasons why most other countries in the world don't allow illegal immigration, and the US is the perfect case study on why they are doing the best thing for their country.


The illegals are also burdening the Car Insurance situation in Georgia. They buy one car and 20 drive it with no insurance. I was hit by one of them. When is the DMV going to crack down. Driving is not a right.

They don't speak English, don't understand the road signs and don't have a clue about traffic laws. It seems many don't care to learn English. But they know how to get illegal papers, cars and cell phones and free health care.

The illegals think they have every right as a citizen because OUR lame assed Government has not enforced any of the laws already on the books against them.

We are not getting the best and brightest Mexico has to offer. Crime has gone up drastically in Georgia amongst illegals. We are getting many of Mexico's worst criminals.

 

Does any know, hypothetically, just how many people would emigrate to the United States, if let's say, there was a totally "open" border policy?



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ May 2 2007, 02:06 PM) [snapback]434099[/snapback]</div>

Wow, how very humanitarian... Let 'em die on the streets, let 'em get locked away 'till they die...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ May 2 2007, 02:01 PM) [snapback]434143[/snapback]</div>

I do ... I do...

There would be a huge flood of people from everywhere here to seek the 'American Dream'. At some tipping point, there would be so many of them that the 'american dream' is no longer worth attaining for there being so many hands in the pot.

Once our standard of living, health care, roads, jobs is equal to that of Mexico, then no one will want to come here anymore.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ May 2 2007, 02:10 PM) [snapback]434143[/snapback]</div>

What in Heaven's name are you talking about?

US Citizens "die on the streets" and are "locked away 'till they die" every day.

Good enough for our citizens, good enough for illegal aliens...that's what I figure. Are you suggesting otherwise?