Mileage hit with snow tires?

I replaced my worn out OEM's with ZiEx Falkens a couple of weeks ago, and have seen my FE drop from 65 -70 to 50 - 55 over a full tank.

I'm bummed, although I have to say the tire traction is really good. I'm thinking about swapping the Falkens and Michelin Harmony between the Prius and the Subaru Outback.

 

Since I have my winter tires on steel wheels, it takes only 20 mins to change over. With the Michelin Harmony on a given stretch of Trans Canada I would be using 5.1 l/100km at 110 km/h at a temp of -20 C (55 mpg).

On the same stretch of Trans Canada, same speed and temp +/ 5 C from above, I'd be using 5.3-5.5 l/100km/h (51-53 mpg). In city driving, no difference at speed of 60-70 km/h

If if the fuel economy hit was much larger, I still wouldn't trade the extra winter traction of my Yokohama Ice Guard 10 tires.

 

I've used Michelin Xice tires for two winters now and have never seen any change in mpg from putting them on or taking them off. I see big changes from fuel, cold temperatures and wet roads.

 

You would probably have to make the comparison during warm weather for any sort of accuracy. Up here mileage can drop by over 10 mpg simply due to the winter fuel mix and weather conditions.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(stanlwyjohn @ Aug 19 2006, 03:41 PM) [snapback]305923[/snapback]</div>

Nokian is a favorite among many people. If your winter needs aren't extreme, they make the WR model which is one of the few all season tires that are also rated as real snow tires (snowflake on the mountain symbol on the sidewall). I ran WR's last winter, but it wasn't a particularly snowy winter so I can't say how well they worked in significant snow storms. It's tough to determine the mileage hit from the WR's vs. weather changes, but they seemed to have a fairly small impact. This past spring I changed from the WR's on 3/26/06 and my tank before the change out on 3/18/06 recorded 48.3 mpg with the WR's and the first 100% tank on the OEM tires on 4/19/06 was 50.6 mpg. The weather alone, the driving mix and whether my wife or I were driving most of the miles could have easily accounted for this difference.

 

Id also like some help with picking snow tires ??
So between the snow ties and winter gas the milage would drop how low roughly?
Do you have to buy new sencers if you keep you winter tires in different rims? any idea how pricey ?
Thanks

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jan @ Aug 20 2006, 10:55 PM) [snapback]306512[/snapback]</div>

I also use Michelin X-Ice tires in winter. They're great on snow and ice. Mileage drops a lot in the winter no matter what you use. I'll bet under identical conditions these tires cost me a few mpg. In my mind, it's well worth the increase in safety. The other advantage of snow tires is that I don't have to consider snow when buying tires for the summer, so I got myself some tires that are excellent in dry and wet conditions.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(stanlwyjohn @ Aug 19 2006, 06:59 AM) [snapback]305802[/snapback]</div>

I was surprised to see that some snow tires have fairly low rolling resistance according to this report by by Green Seal. Unfortunately the otherwise excellent report and data from the TRB (Transportation Research Board) does not include snow tires.

You have several possible solutions for the TPMS tire pressure sensors. The sensors cost over $100 each and are in between the rim and the tire, attached to the metal valvestem. Each sensor has a unique ID number which must be registered with the car's ECU, which can store only four ID's at a time. If you buy another set of TPMS sensors, registering the new ones with the ECU may cost you an hour or so of dealer service time every time you switch rims.

You have several options regarding the TPMS and seasonal changes.

1. Mount the snow tires on the factory aluminum wheels. Don't worry about the tire pressure sensors, except to warn the tireshop to be careful when dismounting tires for seasonal changes. You won't pay anything for the TPMS, but will pay perhaps $70-$140 each year for tire changes.

2. Buy another set of rims for the snow tires. Ignore or put tape over the TPMS low tire pressure dash light during winters. This will cost you maybe $100-160 for a set of steel rims. Seasonal tire(&wheel) changes will be do it yourself or low cost, except when you need new tires.

3. Buy another set of rims and TPMS sensors for the snow tires. The sensors will cost you about $400 (over the rims). Registering the ID's for the other set of sensors might cost around $60 at each change, $120 a year.

I'd recommend option 1, option 2, or writing letters to Toyota asking them to release to tireshops instructions on how to register the TPMS sensor IDs using the scan tool. Currently, Toyota's only released these instructions to their dealerships. (Of course it still took my dealership 3 hours to learn how to do this. The dealership, Nashua Toyota, had the gall to charge for 3 hours of what I considered on the job training. Luckily the tireshop that accidentally broke the sensor was paying.)

 

Seems like Toyota could make available a matching set of 4 with same id's as the summer rims. Then you could switch without any problem and the identical set should be out of range.

 

I have used Blizzaks on steel or alloy wheels for many years. Looking at 4-5 tanks immediately preceding and following my last swap, I'd say that (very roughly) I went from maybe 44 mpg to about 38 mpg when swapping to the snows. These snows are the Revos, on aftermarket alloy wheels.

Of course, the weather was getting colder, I had a recall done right after the swap (taking it to the shop always kills mileage on that tank), and who knows when the winter gas blend kicks in in MN. So, lots of variables there.

I usually use tirerack.com to buy my sets, but they were having a hard time coming up with the steel wheels last year. so I decided to buy their Sport Edition alloy wheels last fall. Turns out the local Tires Plus sold Revos and the exact same wheels. They wanted $100 or more than TireRack, so I printed out the TR quote and showed it to them. They worked the price so that with sales tax, the end price was the same as I'd have paid Tire Rack with shipping.

The benefit of going with Tire Rack is that they swap them on and off for me twice a year.

I couldn't recommend the Blizzak Revos more highly. Inexpensive, and fantastic on ice or deep snow. Although the past few winters have been pretty mild, one deep unplowed snow and the traction control had me cursing the OEM tires.

 

I'm a bit worried about my OEM Integrity tires for the winter as well...the car is new...but I live on steep hills and when we get snow...I have always used Blizzaks on my Camry. I don't have to get to work now, so have the luxury of waiting for the plow and sanding and, then, climb the hills by my house....

I wonder how the Goodyear TT 195's would do in snow? In another thread I read that they didn't affect the mpg that much.

I'm just going to go through this winter and see how I do climbing the hill out of my driveway....

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(terri @ Aug 21 2006, 06:53 PM) [snapback]307133[/snapback]</div>

Hmmm I suggest you search this forum for the humorous thread where I described how I got stuck at a local mall parking ramp when the traction control refused to let me spin a wheel.

I never noticed any difference running the Integrity or the Harmony on ice. Perhaps the Harmony was slightly better. Either way it's easy to get into a situation where the car refuses to apply power.

And forget about backing up the driveway: the weight transfer may help traction a bit, but the traction control also works in reverse. Sticky winter tires are probably needed more on this car than most others.

I've had Dunlop Graspic DS-2 and Yokohama Ice Guard 10 on this car. Both are light years better than "all season" tires on snow and ice. The DS-2 has better highway handling - tracks better - but the Ice Guard has better ice traction, slightly better than the DS-2. Both are equal in snow.

As far as the TPMS issue, I'm glad my Prius doesn't have it. I put on the winter tires on steel wheels at my own leisure, with no issues of warning messages or paying a dealer to register the sensor ID's.

 

What are snow tires. :lol: Sorry, couldn't resist, never had the need for them - you just need to move south and not worry about it.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jayman @ Aug 21 2006, 08:14 PM) [snapback]307147[/snapback]</div>

LOL...you would have to see my driveway and the street I enter from it to know that backing out isn't an option when there is snow or ice....I'll take a photo one day and post it...

Thanks for the recommendations, though, jayman. When I do change tires, I'll have it done at my mechanic or Toyota, since I don't do that myself. I assume Toyota would order the tires you wanted?

...and then install them?

Is the sensor change just for the mpg?

I'll hunt for the mall thread later...I could use a good chuckle...although I'm sure it wasn't funny at the time.

People who visit our house for the first time are sometimes so frightened of our hill, they park up at the top and walk down to my house...We've lived her 29 years so I'm used to getting in and out in all kinds of weather...but some people won't even back out of my driveway in dry road conditions...one has to do it quickly since the hill is so steep and short that sometimes cars come flying over the hill (although they shouldn't) ...I've never had a problem....

I have plenty of time before I get new tires.

I suppose I could have my mechanic order them when I do and install them. Are there any tires than must have "sensor" changes when installed?

terri

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(terri @ Aug 21 2006, 07:53 PM) [snapback]307133[/snapback]</div>

They work for me. I'd have to try your snowy driveway befow I can say they would work for you.
Given I have never had tire pressure sensors on a car and am still alive and well, I imagine I'd save the money and just stick the 'snows' on their own rims. Use the 'black tape' method if the light bothers you. We '04-'05 owners in cold areas get several months of 'snowflake on the road' indicator ("Hello driver. It is below 39F and the road might be icy". Thanks, but it is January, I KNOW it is below 39F. In fact I'll be lucky to see anything that high for 2 months.) so you can probably learn to ignore the low pressure light.

Don't do it. Given your other posts in this thread, the Integritys won't get you up the hill in even minor snow.

I tossed my Integritys when the car was 3 months old. I had taken my kids to a local camp with a somewhat steep, not that long, recently plowed driveway, still had maybe 1/2" snow on it. With a 10 - 15 MPH start I got up with some TC kicking, but never stopping. When I went to get the kids, I had to start up from a dead stop. I was doing "drive up 3 feet, slide down 1 foot" while never taking my foot off the accelerator. The TC kept the wheels from spinning and the Integritys didn't have enough grip to keep the car from sliding down hill when they stopped turning. I guess it kept finding patches where they did get traction since I eventually made it up.

I had a similar occurance with the TTs (still had the paper sticker on them, not ideal traction!) only the road had 4 or 5" of snow, not plowed. When I got to the 'TC stops the tires' point, I didn't slide down, the TTs held on the snow. I had to let off the accelerator so the car would roll back to a traction spot. HUGE difference. When I went back up (making new tracks) with a 10 MPH or so start, I got a little TC kicking in but never stopped and barely slowed down.

 

Now I'm worried...

mongo says that the Michelin X-ICE tires are great....but then I'll be back to tire changing for the seasons...unless I just get good snows and leave them on year round...or..

better still....I can get snows, remove the Integrities and, then, in spring have them put back on...

Is there any reason my regular mechanic couldn't do this for me???

He's been doing all of our maintenance work for more than 30 years....so, unless there is something unique or special about the Prius..don't know why I can't just tell him to order tires and have them put on.

Now I'm on the fence with Goodyear TTs or Michelin-X Ice .....I could also get Blizzaks again.

The Michelin are 185s...that means they are narrow like the Integrities?

My Blizzaks on the Camry (1991) were great on my hill.