Model 3 current and projected production

Discussion in 'Tesla' started by el Crucero, Jul 9, 2018.

  1. el Crucero

    el Crucero Senior Member

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    Oh but you do have skin in the game. For every ICE that remains on the road, even if it is a BMW i3REv that only uses gasoline for 10% of its range, is a real threat to your health in the form of cancer and respiratory diseases due to reduced air quality. If we can reduce air pollution by 90% then great because that will reduce greenhouse gasses too and begin to reverse climate change. If we don't reverse climate change, the Redneck Riviera could be wiped out by increasingly intense hurricanes and rising sea levels. And we wouldn't want that to happen.
     
  2. orenji

    orenji Senior Member

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    So we get ICE cars off the road, what about jet planes, that cause a lot more pollution then a car, ships, manufacturing factories, trains, electrical plants, there is so many additional things in the world that contribute to pollution. ICE in 2018 is so much cleaner then it ever has been.
     
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  3. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

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    No one is saying that we ignore the other things. But transportation is one of the biggest pieces to the puzzle. It is also one that each and everyone of us has direct control over how we individually use.
     
  4. el Crucero

    el Crucero Senior Member

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    Because it is something we can do at a personal level. And don't forget, Tesla and other companies are pushing for BEV trucks. There are a couple of companies pushing for FC trucks but once they discover that hydrogen will cost about 8 times more than electricity to recharge, that concept will die.

    More and more manufacturing in California is going to solar. California has set up a mandatory conversion from fossil fuels to renewable fuels over the next few years for electrical generation......and we currently ahead of schedule. It is happening.
     
  5. orenji

    orenji Senior Member

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    Right - so my ICE hybrid which is considered a clean air vehicle is not a threat.
     
  6. el Crucero

    el Crucero Senior Member

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    Your Toyota hybrid? Only in your mind.
     
  7. orenji

    orenji Senior Member

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    By definition of the State of California
     
  8. tpenny67

    tpenny67 Active Member

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    You give BEVs too much credit. Ignoring CO2, ICE are already clean enough that dust from tire and brake wear is more likely to cause cancer than the exhaust.

    BEVs are going to kill just as many squirrels and kick up just as much dust on a gravel road, and require just as much road salt in the winter, etc.

    Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.
     
  9. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

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    You are too dismisssive of BEVs ;)
    Many places are phasing out ICE vehicles, partly due to CO2, but also other tailpipe emissions.

    The American Lung association finds there are a lot of health benefits to EVs http://www.lung.org/local-content/california/documents/2016zeroemissions.pdf.

    Many other organizations do as well.

    Personally, I would not have used the word ‘threat’ as it is too vague.
    Your hybrid is toxic. It is less toxic than a gas guzzler, but more toxic than a car that emits no tailpipe toxins such as CO.
     
  10. tpenny67

    tpenny67 Active Member

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    There's more health and environmental impacts from driving than just those that come out the tailpipe. Driving a BEV, even when the electricity is sourced from unicorn farts (which probably contain methane, but I digress), still have health and environmental impacts:

    Air Pollution Exposed: Why You Might Be Breathing In Tire Waste | HuffPost

    But more research is needed to better understand the health effects of tire wear particles, Kelly said, especially as non-tailpipe emissions ― from brake pads and road surfaces as well as tires ― become increasingly important while exhaust emissions are brought under control.
     
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  11. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

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    Absolutely, in no way did I mean to imply driving an EV has zero health and environmental impacts.
    It just has a lot FEWER health and environmental impacts than driving an ICE vehicle.
     
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  12. tpenny67

    tpenny67 Active Member

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    Okay, I didn't really like my previous post, as it's going to sound like BEV bashing to some ears. My points are:
    • Global warming / CO2 emissions is far and away the biggest reason to prefer BEV over *fossil fuels* (to distinguish from bio-fueled ICE, which may have a small role to play IMHO)
    • Reducing the need to drive should be a big part of the near-term solution.
     
  13. el Crucero

    el Crucero Senior Member

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    Why ignore CO2? You are incorrect 'enough' on your other points to show you just don't get it. I would be happy to explain, but if your mind is already made up, there is no point.
     
  14. tpenny67

    tpenny67 Active Member

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    *YOU* don't get that we are generally on your side, yet you insist on lumping together any vehicle that has an ICE whether it's a range extender or a turbocharged racing engine. From such an extreme position you sell BEVs as a panacea which they are not.

    I was ignoring CO2 only because it doesn't cause cancer. As stated elsewhere, I fully agree that BEVs are an important part of the answer to global warming, but I guess if I'm not 100% in agreement with you then I might as well just get a diesel pickup and roll some coal :)
     
  15. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    there are way too many squirrels imo.
     
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  16. vinnie97

    vinnie97 Whatever Works

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    I know this is going to make me unpopular around here, but the idea that you can "reverse" climate change is preposterous since the climate is always changing and always has. CO2 isn't poisonous and has been as high as 1400 ppm in earth's history. Actual poisonous emissions reduction, energy independence, and having the ability to own a personal renewable power plant are all the reasons I'm in on this, not the CO2 doom (an atmospheric preponderance of which actually has benefits).
     
  17. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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  18. tpenny67

    tpenny67 Active Member

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    That won't make you unpopular, just a target for re-education :) A few counterpoints:
    • The goal of limiting greenhouse gases is to limit climate change, as there is no realistic way to reverse it
    • While CO2 levels have been higher in the very distant past, the current rate of change is unprecedented and CO2 levels are very well correlated with average temperature
    • The sun is outputting a bit more energy than it did millions of years ago, the same amount of CO2 will produce a warmer climate than it did when the sun was cooler. In a few million more years CO2 won't matter because the sun will simply be too hot. A few billion years after that the sun will totally consume the earth.
    Nobody knows exactly what's going to happen, exactly, but the overwhelming opinion is that it's not going to be good.
     
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  19. el Crucero

    el Crucero Senior Member

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    I believe the obvious and proven that the ICE is by definition destructive and dangerous and deadly both directly and indirectly. You call it extremism, I call it pragmatism. BEVs are not a panacea, they are an important step toward a panacea.
    "Contrary to what might be expected from environmental concerns related to global warming, CO2 (carbon dioxide) health effects and benefits for the human body are innumerable. Life originated and had existed on Earth for millennia under conditions of very high CO2 content of the surrounding air. According to published studies, CO2 content was up to about 7-12% in air when the first creatures with lungs were evolving. Therefore, these creatures could experience all CO2 health benefits that are listed below.

    Note that very large CO2 concentrations (20% and more) produce adverse effects in humans and pure CO2 is a toxic gas."

    So drive that coal roller and hybrid at your own risk, I am fighting to prevent it from being at MY risk.
     
  20. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    We have an opening in the ‘Envronment’ forum. The last skeptic has wandered off.

    The only reason for any criticism is not posting about Tesla.

    Bob Wilson
     
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