More GM Volt Spin

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hill @ Aug 22 2007, 04:38 PM) [snapback]500597[/snapback]</div>

where is Volty when you need an answer?? :lol: :lol: :lol: or Malorn

 

The "battery expert" they consulted doesn't seem to have a clue about the A123 batteries GM plans to use.

For a start, his estimates of the pack weight show that he's completely unaware of the energy density of the planned cells (100 Wh/kg), or of the fact that A123 mass produces the smaller M1 cell already in China. Ramping up production of an established product with the help of a big manufacturer like GM would be no problem at all.

 

I'm wondering how friction from the brakes charges the battery? Anyone?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(patsparks @ Aug 23 2007, 04:52 AM) [snapback]500893[/snapback]</div>

I think that is a dumbed-down explaination for the average Joe, or bloke.
How many folks would understand "kinetic-energy-transfer charges the battery"?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hill @ Aug 22 2007, 05:38 PM) [snapback]500597[/snapback]</div>

GM will never admit that they made yet another huge mistake with the Volt. They'll cite some technological hurdle and downplay their withdrawal, just as they have with their fabled fuel cell cars. They said that hydrogen was ten to fifteen years down the road for ten to fifteen years and now they just don't say anything. But they did cite "infrastructure" as a problem and downplayed it.

This is a classic example of the differences between GM and Toyota. Toyota starts small and builds carefully over time and GM tries to leapfrog past the competition, (since they can't buy the competition this time), with huge numbers of a vehicle with a new technology that they haven't proven out yet. Tortoise and the hare and the tortoise (Toyota) is winning by a wide margin. Anyway, by the time GM gets it's little Volt car on the dealer lots (if it ever does) Toyota will already be selling a new version of the Prius that does basically the same thing, built on it's slow and steady success with hybrid technology, and will once again leave GM behind.

 

Just because A123 choose to manufacture their batteries in China doesn't mean that quality has to be low - I think you are confusing this with some of the 'cloned' copies of goods currently coming from some Chinese companies. When Western designs and quality control are used in the production lines, quality is identical to anywhere else. In fact, Toyota are preparing to build Prius in China too, so it's not just GM/A123.

As for GM not being able to come up with the rest of the goods, there's no issue there at all as a series-hybrid powertrain is just about as simple (and patent free) as it gets.

Siemens / Bosch and other Tier 1 suppliers already have series hybrid drivetrains developed and ready to ship, (so called "off-the-shelf") up to 100 kW.

The ONLY hurdle in getting a good series-hybrid to market is the battery, and GM are ahead of Toyota on this at the moment because of the exclusive non-compete agreements they have with so many LiIon manufacturers. (The existing NiMH in the Prius is not suitable for series hybrid use.)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(clett @ Aug 23 2007, 07:44 AM) [snapback]500930[/snapback]</div>

I don't know about the non-compete with LiIon batts but it would only make sense that GM would use that to basically screw the world , since they will not have a plug in before Toyota anyway. So as I see it they have to hold them up some how, and I guess that would be it, even you just kind of said it. huh. I don't call that being ahead I call that Greed for GM

 

The friction brakes generate heat. When they do, water that's stored
in the windshield-wiper cowling reservoir is dribbled onto them,
flashing immediately into steam. The steam is collected and piped
back to the battery, where a small turbine spins a generator to
charge the battery. Steam is regulated by a simple gravity-operated
valve assembly that uses the car's deceleration force to open farther
on stronger braking and make more steam. The cowl supply is
replenished from rainwater and overnight dew runoff.
.
_H*

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hobbit @ Aug 23 2007, 11:35 AM) [snapback]500995[/snapback]</div>

Wow, that involves a lot of spinning.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(clett @ Aug 23 2007, 04:43 AM) [snapback]500891[/snapback]</div>

A123 has no experinece producing prismatic cells since M1 is a cylinder cell. Therefore I am going to assume that this new higher power density Plug-in (EV) cell that A123 and GM are working on will be cylinder cell. The cylinder cells were used in the first Prius back in 1997 and they use more space and heavier due to packaging issues. Since these new cells will be higher power density than M1, the chemistry has to be changed. How will that affect the life/cycle compare to M1 cells?

To test this new battery cells and the whole pack, you are going to need some time to do the accelerated test. In order to do that, a car closest to production must be available. This car and battery pack has to be tested in extreme conditions such desert and ice cold terrains. How will the battery handle? For an EV like Volt, the demand from the battery will be much higher than Prius. How will it deal with the needed cabin heat and AC? The concept may look simple but the reality may hit them hard. There is just a lot of things to resolve.

Toyota designed, tested, and producted the first Prius is about 3 years. I have no doubt GM can do the same. However the dedication of the engineers will be tested. They need to be free of politics and given total control of the parts to engineer this car. They should not have restriction to reuse the parts and share with other traditional cars. I wish GM management have read the book "The Prius That Shook The World" and learn the lessons that Toyota went through to pull off the Project G21.

Even the first Prius did not sell 60k when it came out and for the Volt to do that is what this analyst is basing his doubt on.

They are trying to markt Volt as a commuter car yet it looks agreessive. Volt seems like a two door sports car. Wrong product for the wrong market? We'll see.

 

A123 have been quietly testing large format automotive LiIon batteries for much longer than most people realise. EV/HV and PHEV batteries have always been the main target market of the company, this drill stuff is only a prelude.

Accordingly, GM aren't planning to use A123's M1 cells (as used in drills today), but are planning to use the large format automotive 32113 M1Ultra or 32157 M1HD series instead. GM's testing of these cells began long before any of this was reported, and they have already met all of GM's requirements for safety, cycle life, energy and power density at the cell AND module level. The current testing is all about integration and the properties of a whole assembled pack.

This is what A123 has to say about the 32 series cells:

"The 32-series cells are designed with abuse-tolerance in mind and will deliver 10+ year and 150,000 mile projected life requirements in engineered automotive battery packs."

"The 32113 M1Ultra high power cells are designed to meet the requirements of HEV applications, with high power by volume and cost-per-watt. The 32113 is currently designed into A123Systems’ programs with major US and European auto manufacturers."

"The 32157 M1HD cell uses a higher-energy electrode design geared specifically for PHEVs, and should offer greater volumetric energy density and the lowest cost per watt-hour. The 32157 is designed to offer superior calendar and cycle life at high depth-of-discharge (DOD), as well as excellent power density for charge-sustaining operation."

 

Excellent, hobbit!

Now, tell us why electric motors are so much more complicated than infernal combustion engines that nobody really undertands them.

 

Did anyone else see this? I don't think folks will be banging on the doors to make a deal on a Volt. So the Volt is a "second" car for over $30,000? :blink: :blink:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(clett @ Aug 23 2007, 12:16 PM) [snapback]501026[/snapback]</div>

I've only read about meeting the requirement at the cell level.... module level is news to me. I do hope the tests are valid because NiMH were on the road way (EV1 and RAV4-EV) before Prius came out. With that said, I do have confident in the power of the A123 cells after seeing what Killacycle can do.

GM's PR uphill battle will be the failure of EV1 and exploding news of the other Li-ion cobalt based cousin. Public perception will be probably the most important battle. Engineering is under their control but not the public perception. Think about it.... tried and failed electric car with a known exploding battery variance. It will be a tuff sell. If the Volt fails again, watch GM come back and say, "See? People don't want electric cars... not even with the on-board generator". They will never admit to the failed leadership by setting the impossible goal. It happened before with PNGV (80 MPG goal). I think Volt is achievable but not by 2010.