More positive VOLT news

I would be delighted to buy a Volt or any other American vehicle that equals the usability (interior and hatch back space), reliability, and economy of the Prius. I am ready!!! That after owning two Prii.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonathan Rohr @ Apr 17 2007, 02:32 PM) [snapback]424853[/snapback]</div>

You gotta wonder if after and if it does get produced if they will s**t can it like the EV1
which was a good car so I have lost faith in GM at this point they do need to play catch up.

 

Talk is cheap. I'll believe them when it's on the car lots ready for sale. Until then, they have ZERO credibility. Note that they give no date for the Volt. They only say, When the right batteries are available. If Tesla can build a car that goes 250 miles on a charge, GM can build the Volt, with its 30-mile range. The batteries are available. GM does not want to sell an electric car. But they don't want the public to know that. ZERO credibility. And anyway, this announcement is nothing new. They've been going around saying how serious they are for ages. Blah blah blah blah. GM is as dishonest as the politicians it's bribed to allow it to continue shafting the country.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Apr 17 2007, 06:18 PM) [snapback]424929[/snapback]</div>

Except Tesla hasn't done anything of the sort. Tesla claims the batteries are available, but does anyone really know if they are? Nobody's been allowed to take the Tesla out for a weekend because all drives are strictly controlled. Nobody knows if they're taking the car into their garages and replacing the batteries after a few dozen of those strictly controlled media spins.

There's a backlash starting to form arount Tesla just for these reasons. They've promised the world and haven't really been open about things. Just letting Popular Mechanics or the like have a car for a weekend would really help to validate some of their claims... but I'm starting to wonder if the Tesla roadster is just smoke and mirrors.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Apr 17 2007, 05:18 PM) [snapback]424929[/snapback]</div>

Daniel,
You do know that Tesla costs more than $100K each, right?
It may have a $20K Lithium-Ion battery on board, and that is fine. However, I don't think you can sell Volt for more than $30K.
Also, Tesla does not offer long warranty on their battery like Toyota do to Prius. Those rich folks can afford a new $20 battery after 3 years, I believe.

Anyway, I just want to point out that using Tesla as an example to discredit GM may not be proper in this case. However, I also think that "talk is cheap". Show me the real thing, GM. I fail to see any real "technology" in Volt. If the battery is widely available and cheap, any automakers can make vehicles like Volts. High-output DC/AC motors are very matured technology if I am not mistaken. Hybrids are complex, but pure electric vehicles are not. Correct me if I am wrong here.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonathan Rohr @ Apr 17 2007, 04:32 PM) [snapback]424853[/snapback]</div>

Good one- you had me there!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ceric @ Apr 17 2007, 09:04 PM) [snapback]425017[/snapback]</div>

I'm no expert, but i'm pretty sure you're right on there. That's why you can take an old VW Rabbit, rip the engine out, cut a hole in the trunk, drop in a bunch of PbA batts, stick an electric motor on the stock tranny, and you've got yourself a 100% EV. Almost did that for my high school project (was scheduled to begin ICE disassembly the next week), but ran into some unexpected twists of life.

and hey, if a high school kid can feel confident enough about building an EV to drop a bunch of his own money into the project, you know it can't be that hard! :huh:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(nwprius @ Apr 17 2007, 04:48 PM) [snapback]424910[/snapback]</div>

Ditto, particularly the functionality part.

GM, if you're listening, building the Volt into the existing Cobalt body is a big mistake. Rear seat legroom is inadequate for adults and the trunk is tiny. It looks cool but lacks functionality. "Environmentally friendly sportscar" is a niche market. "Envirnomentally friendly family hauler" is a much larger market. If you're serious about making money on the Volt, put it into the HRH body (still the Cobalt platform), and market it to the minivan/crossover crowd. Please. I'd love to buy one.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Apr 17 2007, 04:47 PM) [snapback]424961[/snapback]</div>

They have something like six prototype vehicles, in different stages of testing/design. It's cost them millions for stuff like crash testing, and they don't have deep pockets like the big auto companies do. GM can afford to spend millions to build a single prototype of a car they never intend to manufacture, and give it to a reporter for a weekend. Tesla cannot.

They are behind schedule. Lots of folks are unhappy about that. They discovered that the two-speed electric transmission (a transaxle, I think) turned out to be less sturdy than they wanted, so that part went back to the drawing board. They want to begin production of the Founders' Series this summer. I bet they do it within a year, and then we'll see.

Right now, NOBODY gets to drive it but their own people. But as for the 250-mile claim, the tzero did 250 miles on a charge, and the Tesla is using AC Propulsion technology.

It's true that the Tesla is a $92,000 car. It's also got faster acceleration than a Ferrari. It's an extremely high-performance sports car. At exactly proportional pricing to the Tesla battery pack, a 30-mile pack would cost $2,400. But with GM's R&D budget, and economy of scale, GM could probably produce a 30-mile battery pack for under $2,000 and maybe less. Give it a top speed of 105 and a zero to sixty of 9 or 10 seconds, and the cost would be a lot less. But a small company cannot compete in the family-car market, because the big boys have too much economy of scale. Tesla went in at the ultra-high-performance sports-car market because that's where a small, low-production company can compete.

I repeat: The batteries are here today, and building a market for them will bring cost down even further.

GM could build the Volt today if it wanted to. It does not want to.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Apr 17 2007, 07:47 PM) [snapback]424961[/snapback]</div>

Batteries aren't ready? Sooo . . . RAV4-EV's built in the 1990's . . . over 100K miles now, some of them, still getting over 120 mile ranges . . . now it's the 21st century, but we can't build a 30 mile battery. Sounds right to me.

 

by the way, tesla just lowered it's range to about 200 miles http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=6959

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Apr 18 2007, 09:07 AM) [snapback]425264[/snapback]</div>

And this is why:

http://www.ev1.org/gmoil.htm

'In fact, their GM investment, a market value of only $11B, is dwarfed by more than 10 times that value ($115B) in their investments in just these four oil companies."

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Apr 18 2007, 10:07 AM) [snapback]425264[/snapback]</div>

Then Toyota could build one today also. I wonder what nefarious reason they have not to? For that matter, they could have had a plug-in Prius two years ago. How much of the oil companies does Toyota own?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Marlin @ Apr 18 2007, 11:19 AM) [snapback]425508[/snapback]</div>

Yes Toyota could build one today (and I won't sit here and imply that they haven't). Nobody is stopping them. There's no conspiracy needed. Let me please draw your attention to the fact that GM is the one shouting that they want to build this but need to wait for the batteries. Toyota hasn't said they're building one, or really even looking into it. Hmmm. Why the silence?

Just sit tight, and you'll soon see Toyota eating GM's cake once again. Not for any nefarious reason - simply because Toyota is methodical. And GM talks a lot. When the announcement comes, and you realize what I'm babbling about - drop me a line and tell me how smart I am. We'll have a beer.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ceric @ Apr 17 2007, 06:04 PM) [snapback]425017[/snapback]</div>

You sound so much like Lutz that it is scary. You're comparing a long-range, high performance car and battery to something that could be WAY smaller and cheaper. If you scaled the Tesla back to the realatively lack-luster performance and battery range of the Volt, it isn't going to cost $100k! The point is that Tesla can (and has, btw) found batteries that work, for a reasonable price/kWh.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Apr 17 2007, 03:47 PM) [snapback]424961[/snapback]</div>

You're just like a regular ray of sunshine, aren't you?

Are you comparing Tesla Motors with GM in this instance? Here's your big difference - Tesla has several prototypes completely built and on the road being tested. They're slamming them into walls to test safety. They're hammering the snot out of them. No, they are not in production - and everybody is a bit nervous about that - but they're real cars that exist in the real world and are being driven. The Volt is nothing of the sort.

Tesla has not promised the world. They've promised a very specific product with published performance parameters that have recently changed (range - to account for a more durable battery). They are being as transparent as is prudent at this stage. If you're after smoke and mirrors, please browse the Volt brochure again. The Tesla is for real. That the expected range has now been lowered to 200 miles shows the result of testing and honesty with the pre-paid customers. The claims for the volt have no basis in the practical world - just about anything can be claimed when you haven't put the rubber to the pavement.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Apr 18 2007, 03:49 PM) [snapback]425534[/snapback]</div>

Oh but darrell, you missed the point. If GM does or doesn't do something, then it's always for evil reasons. When Toyota does or doesn't do the same thing, it's for benevolent reasons.

So, GM isn't building the Volt, or hasn't already built the Volt because they are evil. Toyota hasn't built the Volt or even a plug-in Prius because they are... methodical.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hill @ Apr 18 2007, 10:41 AM) [snapback]425472[/snapback]</div>

Great point, of course.

There are many over 150k miles now, getting the same range as when new. These are 10 and 11-year-old vehicles.

We also have some retail vehicles (only five years old, since they were only sold in 2002 and 2003) that have just crossed the 100k mark as well. And all are doing better than 100 miles of range on the original batteries. These cars/batteries were first put on the road in 1996 when NiMH was a new chemistry (invented for EVs, by the way). Eleven years go we had the battery technology for this kind of range and calendar life. Hello? tap, tap. Is this thing on?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Marlin @ Apr 18 2007, 12:11 PM) [snapback]425550[/snapback]</div>

Well, I know you aren't talking to ME here, so I won't run with the bait. That isn't my thinking, and I think you know that.

I think you missed MY point. My point is that GM is saying they will build the Volt. But aren't going to just yet because of a poor excuse (in my book). They are playing the game. Same as the Fuel Cell vehicle game from what I can tell. "Just stick with our guzzlers a few more years, and we promise we'll come out with something better." Toyota hasn't yet built (actually, I'll go with "marketed" here) a plug-in hybrid. And they haven't said they will. While they'd love for you to also keep buying *their* nasty gas-hogs, they truly are working on products that at a minimum help balance the earth-destroyers that they also sell.

I've said it many times - Toyota isn't the dream/green company it would like to be seen as. But I also contend that they are going about things in a more methodical fashion - this doesn't mean they aren't evil in some ways!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Apr 18 2007, 12:57 PM) [snapback]425534[/snapback]</div>

Reading between the lines, are you telling us that you know something we don't, and that Toyota is going to bring out a new EV sometime in the near future? That would be fine news indeed.

Feel free to send me an email if you don't want to publish your reply in an open forum.