My Concerns with the New Prius

Discussion in 'Gen 5 Prius Main Forum' started by Tideland Prius, Nov 21, 2022.

  1. JoeBlack

    JoeBlack Member

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    TBH, I would not really mind that one as I am using it on my current one.
    I know it probably does not make sense, but ... I read somewhere ... that high octane does not degrade so fast and is more suited for plugins that sip fuel slowly.
    In spring to summer, I was able to pretty much drive 1-2 months on one tank of gas.
    + Company I work for pays the fuel when I am on a business trip :)
     
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  2. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Toyota is doing it more to differentiate the Prius from the Corolla. The other major markets don't have a hatchback advantage for the Prius. The 1.8L is also still an option for the hybrid.

    In the case of the Prime, many looking at it will be cross shopping it with BEVs. The Rav4 Prime was already the most powerful Toyota you can buy.

    Octane rating drops over time. A concern when the gas is stored in a plastic can for the lawnmower. Emission regulations means a car's gas tank is far better sealed. Plug ins also have systems in place to use up fuel before it reaches the point of being unusable in the car.
     
  3. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Patron saint of newly poured sidewalks

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    Currently very rare though, and hopelessly short supply. Saw one parked while walking the dog this morning, had to stop and stare. :)
     
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  4. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    Yup. Colleague is still waiting for theirs. 17 months and counting.
     
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  5. JoeBlack

    JoeBlack Member

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    I am not mistaken, Plugins even usually have metal made fuel tanks instead of plastic ones, to negate the possibility of stale gas eating through the tank.
    TBH, I had no idea octane drops, but it sure does explain a lot :)
     
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  6. MotoEco

    MotoEco Junior Member

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    It may not make logical sense but there is so much marketing/ group think telling everyone a Hybrid is old technology and a BEV is the most efficient choice. Then you have fanatics who will tell you buying a hybrid is contributing to the destruction of the earth.

    If the 5th generation is more refined (now that it looks better), I consider it a win.
     
  7. MotoEco

    MotoEco Junior Member

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    Vehicle safety is a much bigger consideration for me than ever before. Far too often people will drive through red lights at speed or be so distracted they plow into your vehicle. I'm hoping this generation Prius scores very well in crash worthiness. As much as I am not a Tesla fan, it is hard to dispute how well they perform in crashes.
     
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  8. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    if it helps, there have been no problems that i recall seeing with 87 octane on pip or prime for the last 10 years.
     
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  9. Sarge

    Sarge Senior Member

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    Neither extreme is that efficient if we look at it logically. An EV with excessive and rarely used battery capacity (or overpowered electric motor = more weight), will be heavier than necessary, reducing efficiency.

    Hybrids of course still burn a reasonable amount of gasoline (& emissions), though significantly less than ICE vehicles. Those screaming “hybrids still kill the planet!” in support of BEV are really focusing their energy on the wrong (lesser) enemy, IMO.

    Ultimately, a well-engineered PHEV strikes the perfect balance - minimizing fossil fuel use in the most common use case (daily commute, etc), while not wasting precious resources in an excessive battery size which is rarely exhausted it’s full capacity. Similar to those who buy a big truck to move a boat once or twice a year. :confused:

    Building ten PHEVs with a 10KWh battery will produce a much more significant environmental benefit compared to one BEV with a 100KWh battery. Each KWh is used frequently, none are “wasted”.
     
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  10. Louis19

    Louis19 Member

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    Yes indeed , the Prime aswers all my needs ......after 9 monts of ownership I can report 10 000 KM with an average of 1.6litre/ 100km
    and no range anxiety :cool:
     
  11. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    Yup. Unless those same people have own a hybrid for at least a decade and helped reduce pollution, they shouldn't be on the loudspeaker considering they've only recently joined the low emissions club. Some of those have owned early LEAFs and Model Ses and I applaud them for making the jump early.

    @Sarge, not to mention the extra resources needed to make EV-specific tyres (or at least purchase tyres with extra reinforcement) because they weigh the same as an SUV of the same class. E.g. my EV6 weighs the same as a 3-row Subaru Ascent (and more than a current gen HiHy). A Model 3 LR AWD weighs more than a RAV4 Hybrid (and a base Model 3 RWD is slightly more than a base gas RAV4). Not to mention some companies allow the instant torque to be accessible immediately, accelerating (no pun intended) tyre wear when the owner pushes the car.
     
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  12. jackalope

    jackalope Junior Member

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    Every PHEV and BEV that helps replace gas cars is a net benefit to the environment. This is especially the case when they enter the used market and replace much less efficient gas vehicles in the future. The more mainstream (cost, desired driving characteristics, style, etc.) the more people buy them. The right answer is probably more of both and fewer gas vehicles.
     
  13. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    I've never heard that one. Though I have heard that E0 (no ethanol) goes stale slower than E10, and numerous places that sell E0 have it only in high octane, thus creating a correlation in the view of some consumers.
    I believe you are mistaken. Metal is part of getting a better seal, helping keep the gas from going stale in the first place:

    "... but now we've got the scoop on the gas tank used to keep liquid fuel in the Volt from evaporating or going stale for up to a year. "

    How designing the Chevy Volt's sealed gas tank brought automakers, CARB together | Autoblog
     
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  14. Isaac Zachary

    Isaac Zachary Active Member

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    I wonder what the octane suggestions/requirements mean for a place like here where minimum octane at the pumps is 83 or 85 m+r/2.

    If my Avalon were to blow up tomorrow I'd have a hard time deciding between a 2023 Prime and a 2023 Bolt.

    I don't need a canopy high up over my head. I'm not getting a Marge Simpson hairdo any time soon. In EV mode most of the electricity goes to moving around air with the car's body more than anything else. Running gasoline it's the second place most of the energy goes. The lower the roofline the better IMO. There doesn't seem to be a car out there anymore that my head even comes close to the ceiling, and I'm just over 6' tall. What a waste of space. Sheesh!
     
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  15. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    It explains why a lot of gas power tools call for at least midgrade. Compared to a car fuel tank, even a plastic one, those tanks are effectively open to the atmosphere.

    Came across it in an article leading up to the Volt's release. Most of the octane increasing compounds in a gasoline blend are lighter weight and more volatile. They evaporate off first. In an unsealed can used for the lawnmower the octane rating can drop by one per month.

    One of the reasons why PHEVs have poor reputation in some circles is because popular models weren't well engineered. The top selling models in Europe were about as efficient as an ICE, not hybrid, model when not in EV mode. The other reason is that there isn't a good way of ensuring they get charged. Businesses in Europe were buying them for the benefits, and giving them to employees that couldn't charge them. The Prius Prime isn't a big seller because it has a 10% import tax on top of the VAT.

    PHEVs can do a lot of good, but only if people use them as intended. For policy, depending on people to do the right thing doesn't usually go well.

    The study that backs that up concluded that the best use of that 100kWh for reducing carbon emissions would be to split it up over 200 diesel mild hybrids.

    High elevation? You'd use 89 to get the max power out of the engine. Going higher won't yield any more benefit. Even then, the engine can't produce the same level of power as if it were at sea level. Thin air means less air in the cylinder, and less fuel that can be burned per cycle. It needs a charger, turbo or super, to get the same output regardless of elevation, and such engines can't use the reduced octane fuels in the mountains; 87 minimum all the time.
    I'm 5'10, and prefer sitting upright while driving. Having the seat set for that preference in a 2005 Prius and 2016 Camry meant my hair was brushing against the ceiling and top edge of the windshield blocked my upper view. Had to have the seat at a recline, which isn't comfortable for me on long trips. A 2013 Sonic was more comfortable road trip car than the Camry for me.

    Toyota's assumed driver position is why their cars are near the bottom of my possible lists. I might give the new Prime a sit test when the time comes for a new car, but my expectations are low.
     
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  16. Isaac Zachary

    Isaac Zachary Active Member

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    I do notice the roof is higher on the Gen 2 Prius than on the Avalon, yet the Avalon's front seats go way down deep to the floor (electrically controlled) which is nice if you don't mind your legs sticking out in front of you.

    Personally I don't like to sit straight up on long trips. It strains my lower back to do that as the seat is no longer supporting my back.
     
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  17. Sarge

    Sarge Senior Member

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    Agreed, though this applies to many things in life. ;)

    Sure, I was only making a point on the principle (splitting electrification among many vehicles rather than concentrating on fewer BEVs), not that specific scenario. I agree that maximizing the vehicles even if only mild hybrids would have the largest impact. We are on the same page here. (y)

    Interestingly, I also prefer sitting maximum upright in my vehicles for better posture, and am considerably taller (6’2”) than you, and have never had a problem in either of my Priuses. My first was a 2006 (manual cloth seats, no height adjustment at all), and my 2014 PiP with Softex power seat, where I position it at maximum lowest setting (since I prefer sitting low) and still have several inches (2+ inches?) above my head. I find it interesting that you have headroom issues at 5’10”; you must have a long torso? I think I am average proportions for my height.

    I expect the 2023 to have net less headroom (~1”?) based on information available, but I figure I should fit fine based on how I currently fit with plenty of space in my 2014 (and also the current Prime model that I have sat in/test driven).:rolleyes:
     
  18. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    It's an assumption based on the premise that batteries are a limited supply, and will remain so. If that had been true when hybrids first arrived, Toyota wouldn't have sold over million hybrids yet. New mines and factories for batteries are being built. Car makers or moving to different chemistries for some models that don't need nickel or cobalt.

    The real constraint of battery supply for cars might be competition from grid supply installations. There are chemistry options that aren't suitable for cars and trucks, but would work in stationary installations. It is also an area that green hydrogen could prove a solution. Long term, I think we'll be better off encouraging diversification of grid supply methods than arguing over what car type is more deserving of batteries.
    29 inch inseam.
    Interior car measurements for head, hips, etc. assume some average sized human sitting in the seat. Which leaves things lacking for some people. It's why test drives are important.
     
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  19. JSH

    JSH Senior Member

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    I think this is a big part of the new focus. Now that Toyota is selling the Corolla Hybrid for more is expected from the Prius. The Prius is larger and likely to be about $5,000 more expensive. It will be priced against and compared to vehicles like the Camry and Accord. The Camry Hybrid has 208 hp and gets 52 mpg. The Accord hybrid has 204 hp and gets 48 mpg. Both run 0-60 in about 7 seconds. The Prius can't continue to have 120 hp and go 0-60 mph in 10 seconds priced against the Accord and Camry. Likewise it can't be slower than a Corolla Hybrid if it costs thousands more.

    Then there is the basic economics and the fact that MPG is a non-linear unit of measure. Going from 60 mpg to 70 mpg sounds like a big change but it doesn't save much money or fuel. Even for someone driving 15,000 miles per year that is only 36 gallons of fuel saved in a year. At $5 a gallon that is $179 a year / $3.43 a week. Ask the typical car buyer if they would rather save less than $5 a week on fuel or have 80 more HP for noticeably quicker acceleration and the vast majority of them will take the extra power and acceleration.

    The savings aren't anywhere near going from 20 mpg in a truck to 30 mpg in a crossover. Frankly most people will be plenty happy with 40 or 50 mpg and that makes sense and the savings rapidly diminish as mpg increases.
     
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  20. Louis19

    Louis19 Member

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    Hummm.. very interesting .....the idea that Toyota is reshuffling the Prius position in the line up since the Corolla proposes several models of hybrid .Also that the Camry hybrid gets 52mpg out of [email protected] and you might be on the right track ..just waiting to see the pricetag of the new Prius , hybrid and PHEV (prime)
     
    #120 Louis19, Nov 28, 2022
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2022
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