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My new Prius scares the crap out of me

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Main Forum' started by Oldhippie, Mar 16, 2016.

  1. Oldhippie

    Oldhippie New Member

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    I am new here. Very new. I will probably offend decorum here, I can't even find a site rules or etiquette page. Plunging ahead anyway as if I knew what I was doing.

    I bought a 2010 Prius IV, not Four because it is a 2010 you bought and only 2010 used uppercase roman numerals for model designation. There are three different owners manuals amounting to a thousand pages of documentation. All that text is in Japlish. I've read many passages half a dozen times and still don't know what they are trying to tell me. That text is largely opaque, in many sections it is entirely opaque. When I read text I do not like making surmises about the author's intent. That seems the only way to make sense of the manual. Relying on surmises will lead to errors.

    Today my partner's car had a dead battery. She left the dome light in her Honda Fit on overnight. So I got out the manual and found the section on how to jumpstart. It did not occur to me that procedure should not work the same in reverse. As far as I have ever known any car will jump any car. Now I read here that jumpstarting from a Prius is one of the worst things you can ever do. I did get her car started. I did drive away in the Prius without any further event. Do I need to go see my mechanic and have diagnostics performed? Have I damaged the computer or the batteries? Is something unexpected going to happen one hundred or one thousand miles ahead? And how shall I avoid messing up again?

    When the manual takes thirty pages to cover opening and closing the door that manual is defective. When the manual needs eighty pages to cover hands free telephoning it's quite certain only those who already know the program will ever use hands free telephoning. All I want to do is operate my car safely. I have operated many underpowered cars and many cars with sub-optimum brakes and have gone 48 years with zero accidents. I don't want to be in an accident because I can't operate the car I'm in. Prius has been a very successful nameplate with very high owner satisfaction. It cannot be unusually difficult to operate the car. It does seem odd there should be so many unique and less than obvious features. Can someone here please tell me what the manual should be telling me? Is there any way to learn or do I have to learn the hard way? Will I need to spend hundreds of hours here gleaning from different threads?
     
  2. 2k1Toaster

    2k1Toaster Brand New Prius Batteries

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    Welcome!

    I've read lots of the manual and technical documents and they are all crystal clear to me for the GenII (2004-2009) and GenIII (2010-2015). The words chosen are purposeful and clear with no ambiguity. But no it does not read as a blog post or something, it is a heavy technical manual. Perhaps you have an example of this "Japlish"...

    That has never been the case. If you have an 8 cylinder diesel truck and you try and jump it with a Yugo, it is very possible that it won't work and you'll burn out the alternator on the small car.

    On almost any modern car, when you jumpstart you open up the possibility to a can of worms. It is not Prius specific, and it is not an immediately worse thing, but it is still a bad idea. if you have sparking when you connect the cables those sparks are a huge amount of energy going through your car's ECUs. Each ECU is a few hundred to thousands of dollars. And you have tons of them. Just like any other modern car. All it takes is one bad capacitor and the whole ECU needs to be replaced. If you are looking up how to jump start in a manual, don't be jump starting.

    You don't need to see a mechanic or anything. If you had fried something you would immediately know it. Similarly, if you had reversed the polarity on the jump start, you would have immediately known it.

    I say it is thorough. As I said, the manual is clear and unambiguous but it does take time to spell things out.

    Or those that can read. Or those that just figure it out.

    I don't know what your problem is with figuring it out. The Prius is an extremely intuitive car. I didn't read the manual before I started using the car. I read the manual as an exercise later. I rent lots of vehicles and the Prius behaves like every other Toyota out there. In every rental I get (usually one a week) I pair my phone via bluetooth before I drive out of the Gold lot. Usually takes a minute or two. Never once have I broken out the user manual.

    Considering you are driving the car, it is obviously not that hard to operate as you claim. Push the button to turn it on, and press the go pedal. Off it goes! I don't know what you mean about "underpowered cars" and "sub-optimum brakes" in relation to the Prius. No it is not a sports car, but it is fast enough and has enough power to be a "left lane driver". As far as the brakes, you will be hard pressed to find better performing brakes that aren't on a $100K sport car (carbon-ceramic).

    If you want to know everything about your new car, then yes it is going to take a long time and there is lots to know. Most of what is in the manual is completely useless if you have two brain cells to rub together. How to operate power windows? Who doesn't know how to make the windows go up and down?!?!?! The interesting stuff isn't in there. Like the CAN bus arbitration, or the mapping between the go-pedal and the CAN values that comes out of it. Or the battery voltage differential per module that causes faults and how the BMS system in general works. Heck, how the hybrid synergy drive works with its planetary gear set, no transmission...

    It is up to you how much you want to know, but all the info is there.
     
    toyotechwv, kenoarto and HybridBull like this.
  3. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    congrats and welcome. it's just a car, drive and enjoy!(y)

    p.s. you didn't do any damage jump starting your partners bar.

    p.p.s. i read half the manual on a r/t flight to cali, and never picked it up again, unless looking for something specific like programming door locks or resetting the maintenance needed message.
    is this your first foreign car? mine have all been in gibberish for the last 40 years.

    do not use a car wash.
     
    Redpoint5 likes this.
  4. Dion Kraft

    Dion Kraft Member

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    This car forced you to read the manual eh? Yeah it can be a little strange as the operation are not always what it seems to what you have been accustomed to previously. But its either you learn or go blindly your own way - You choose. I would agree that the manual is very well written and in some ways overly complex on some subjects. The deal with that is to not have any other interpretation other than what is written. That is written so that you cannot have as much as it can any ambiguity in the statements. But now that your here you can ask in your own stylish way what all this means so people here will try to help you. If this is really too much - sell the car.
     
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  5. CR94

    CR94 Senior Member

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    If you can't find ambiguous or poorly written "Japlish" phrases in the owner's manual, you didn't look very hard. I've seen worse, though.
     
  6. JimboPalmer

    JimboPalmer Tsar of all the Rushers

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    No. If there was damage, your Prius would not start or charge.

    Reverse polarity is the worst battery charging event, ($4000) it can happen if you are the chargee or the charger. There is a 100 amp fuse you can blow if your chargee pulls a lot of juice. My guess is that the Fit still had some charge, just not enough to start on it's own.

    There used to be a simplified User guide by John1701a, but the site seems to be down now. If you want a quick list of things not to do:

    Do not work on the brakes without Techstream software.
    Do not spin the tires.
    Do not run out of gas.
    Do not jump start other cars.
    Always use electricity in Ready.
    It does not charge in N, so avoid N
     
    #6 JimboPalmer, Mar 16, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2016
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  7. Andyprius1

    Andyprius1 Senior Member

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    Going on a trip one morning, a couple of drunk kids asked me for a jumpstart at a gas station. They thought I was lying to them when I said I couldn't do it.
     
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  8. HybridBull

    HybridBull Junior Member

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    You'll be fine...However, I have one of these battery backup jump starters in each one of my cars: Amazon.com: Zeusray 8000mah Multi function Portable power bank, USB 5V/2A for Cell phone & digital device , 12V 300A jump starter for Automobile: Cell Phones & Accessories
    They work great, I have actually used them to jump start cars and it is amazing how easily and quickly they work. Plus, they can also charge your cellphone in an emergency and have a flashlight built in. There are many available on Amazon (probably some cheaper ones than this one too). But this one includes a nice sturdy case that keeps it and the cables all together. The battery lasts at least 6 months without needing to be recharged (without use) and I think it claims that it can go 12 months (but I usually top it off after 6).

    Are you really not supposed to use a car wash?
     
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  9. JimboPalmer

    JimboPalmer Tsar of all the Rushers

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    I use a car wash all the time. my car sits in Park while the machine goes back and forth. The ones not to use try to drag your car through the wash.
     
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  10. Kramah313

    Kramah313 Active Member

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    The main reasons it's bad to jump another car are (1) that the Prius has a very small 12v battery and doesn't have enough power to jump most cars without straining the Prius electric system too much - the Honda Fit also probably has a small battery so it still worked and (2) if you get the polarity wrong (connect positive to negative or vice versa) you may do serious damage to the inverter, which transforms DC current from the high voltage battery to AC current for the electric motors. This is thousands of dollars worth of damage.

    I would recommend a portable jump pack like others have said. This can help you if you need a jump or someone else as well without risking damage to the Prius.

    The manual can be intimidating, but spending time here will be helpful. As you said, if driving the Prius was really complicated/dangerous it would not be as popular as it is. It even says in the manual when in doubt, just drive it you as would a normal car. We like to talk about hypermiling, regen braking instead of friction, EV glides, PWR/ECO modes, etc but the reality is the car will do just fine if you drive it like any other car with a smart key system and push button start. They made it drive like a normal car on purpose, so there wouldn't be a learning curve if you're just trying to get from point A to B without squeezing every last bit of MPG out of it. Just drive it and enjoy!
     
  11. Sergiospl

    Sergiospl Senior Member

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    I would first watch all the " 2010 Prius How To" Prius How-To: Energy Monitor | 2010 Prius | Toyota

    If you need a jump: How to jump start your Prius by Larry Miller Toyota of Peoria

    Prius MAX MPG Secrets

    Toyota Prius Max MPG Tips

    PowerAll PBJS12000R Rosso Red/Black Portable Power Bank and Car Jump Starter
     
  12. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    This type of 'accident' can be greatly reduced -- though not eliminated -- by changing the offending lamp from its original incandescent type to an LED type that draws 80% to 90% less current. The sharply reduced current draw allows far more time to discover and remedy the error before the battery goes dead. This should allow healthy batteries to easily go all night without being drained or damaged.

    Unidirectional lamps with brightness similar to the original, will save the most current. Extra bright models, and omni-directional light patterns that needlessly cast a lot of light into useless directions inside the light fixture housing, often save much less.
     
  13. KennyGS

    KennyGS Senior Member

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    I just like to look at the pictures. :)
     
  14. Oldhippie

    Oldhippie New Member

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    Thank you. Especially thank you to those telling me not to worry. I needed to hear that. Hearing that does help. That people are willing to respond is encouraging.

    I've had this car three weeks and have driven less than 100 miles. Right now it would not be practical to sell the car as the Secretary of State has not yet processed my title. With Illinois finances a wreck it could be a while before I get that title. If the situation does not improve by then I will sell the car.

    Intuitive is a slippery word. I have jumpstarted a 12.7 liter Detroit Diesel with a 1962 Volkswagen. The Series 60 12.7 is an inline six, so no, I've not started a V-8 diesel. That VW was already elderly when we did that and it was not purely stock. It did still have the original engine and was much closer to stock than most. I have jumped V-8 gas engines from motorcycles. It is not at all intuitive that an automobile produced in 2010 and packed full of batteries should be substantially less capable than 1950s motorcycles with electrical systems provided by the Prince of Darkness. The Honda I jumped yesterday may not have been entirely dead, it was far enough down there was no solenoid sound, no power for accessories, the clock and radio had to be reset.

    The most egregious example that comes to mind concerning the language of the manual is that the volume titled Navigation System Owner's Manual is not about the navigation system. I have no idea what criteria were used for material included in that volume. If you can use your Bluetooth phone in any rental car, good for you. You don't need a manual. Without a substantial body of prior knowledge the manual is not useful.
    Conspicuously the manual did not go through any English language editorial process. I am very surprised Toyota legal would approve the manual. Perhaps standards in the 21st century are so low this manual passes muster, it is still wretched and impenetrable prose.

    I too get more from the illustrations than from the text. Reading the illustrations is not straightforward either. At best the technical illustration is very weak. I suspect that Japanese illustrators have conventions for highlighting significant detail that are not compatible with American expectations.

    At this point I will risk Introducing new material. I did take the car to the dealer to have the reverse alarm turned off. That alarm was halfway to a siren. I wanted to jump out of the car and run. The car still has a large vocabulary of electronic beeps, chirps, bells, tones. If it's important enough to set off an alarm then it's important enough the driver should respond. Is it always safe to continue driving 'intuitively' and always ignore these alerts? I won't put in earplugs or wear headphones to drive a car. I've never operated any machine where it was sensible to disregard the sounds coming from the machine.
     
  15. ericbecky

    ericbecky Hybrid Battery Hero

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    Welcome to prius ownership.
    Lots of folks here will be glad to help.
    Just read a bit on the forums or post your own question if needed.

    I know there are some Chicago area owners that meet to talk about hybrid stuff if you'd like to meet other owners in person.

    We have a club up here that meets every other month. ( been doing that for going on 12 years!)
    There some helpful guides written by owners as well.

    But barring all that, if you have some questions, feel free to give me a call any time and I'll help point you in the right direction.

    Or if you are ever in Madison let's get together.
     
  16. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    Just another tip: "B" on the shifter is rarely warranted. I wouldn't use it as a braking substitute around town, for short hills or to slow. Just use your brakes: they'll be mostly using the regenerative function of the electric motors. The only time "B" is needed is on extremely long downhills, where there's a danger of charging the battery to the point they'll no longer charge, and the full responsibility for braking is put back on the friction brakes, and there's still lots of downhill to come.
     
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  17. I'mJp

    I'mJp Senior Member

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    If you use cruise control, the car will charge the battery to maintain speed. When battery gets fully charged, it automatically switches to engine braking.
     
  18. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    it's not for everyone i suppose. keep trying, hopefully you will get used to it. but it does sound like you're a little hyper sensitive.
     
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  19. qdllc

    qdllc Senior Member

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    I agree with the issue over the verbosity of the Prius manuals (yes PLURAL of "manual"). I found it easier to fiddle with the car first and figure it out on my own and then read them. If I read them first, it would have been more confusing.
     
  20. JimboPalmer

    JimboPalmer Tsar of all the Rushers

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    Correct, you only need B when you know at the top that you will exceed the battery capacity and want cool brakes all the way to the bottom. If you have over a 1000 foot (300m) continuous drop that is a good time for B. In the US, the Rockies, Sierra, Cascades, Smokies can all have such down hills. I would guess the Appalachians do as well but I am not familiar with them.