My Prius dead again, with techstream this time.

Discussion in 'Prius v Main Forum' started by gromittoo, Oct 16, 2021.

  1. gromittoo

    gromittoo Active Member

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    When I get the car back today or tomorrow, I will see if I can monitor that value in Techstream or better yet torque pro in real time. I don't see a listing for "Short Wave" in my Prius specific items to monitor in Torque.

    I also can't find my Bluetooth ODBII adapter, which I suspect is in the toolbox of the first tech that worked on my car the first time. That technician is on vacation this week, so I won't be able to get it back this week, but I will ask about it when I pick up the car. I may wind up buying 3 of those adapters, and attaching them with a lanyard to each of my three cars.
     
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  2. Georgina Rudkus

    Georgina Rudkus Senior Member

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    Hope everything turns up well, grom.
     
  3. gromittoo

    gromittoo Active Member

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    The car is at the dealer, awaiting the valve. I need to point out that I have never had a loud "Whoosh" of vapor when removing the gas cap on either Prius or my van.
     
  4. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    I am quite, quite certain that when the tech spoke of "building up and releasing incredible pressure" there were some details being omitted.

    There is no way, as I understand it, the fuel system as a whole can withstand pressure or vacuum of more than a handful of inches of mercury either way; the tank itself would balloon out or crumple like a soda can.

    Hence my suspicion that the "incredible pressure" happened very quickly and locally: the purge line introduced some fuel-vapor-laden air into the manifold at an inopportune time, like a backfire, and that went boom.

    Of course I wish the TSB came with a defect information report the way recalls do, so we could see more of the story.
     
  5. rjparker

    rjparker Senior Member

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    Is it possible to jinx the same problem twice?
     
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  6. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Sand Pounder

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    A quick scan of the repair manual this morning, I didn't find anything to corroborate this. Didn’t look that long though.

    Is the new valve a different part number, maybe that’s the reason?
     
  7. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    While the TSB does say to replace the valve and to update the firmware, that might not necessarily mean it's a changed valve that can't be operated with the old firmware.

    To be honest, I don't even see anything in the TSB suggesting the old valve was a different part number. It only says to replace the valve, part number 25860-37020.

    It's possible the real magic is in the firmware update (don't open the valve when things would go boom), and the valve is only replaced because it already went boom (as the TSB is only expected to be applied to cars where this has happened).
     
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  8. gromittoo

    gromittoo Active Member

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    From the TSB: The area highlighted in red shows that the "old" part number and the "new" part number are in fact the same. So replacing the Purge Valve could mean that Toyota assumes the valve was damaged by whatever happened, and should be replaced.
    upload_2021-10-20_17-6-59.png

    I suppose a dishonest person could contact their dealer, saying that those two hoses keep blowing off, and throwing codes, can I get the firmware update?

    I still want to understand how an EVAP system can build up so much pressure, and not be considered a fire hazard. I thought gas caps were required to have emergency vents built into them for just that reason.

    What really pisses me off is that the same dealer did the recall firmware update for the inverter back in June. Why doesn't Toyota do "Rollup updates" the way Microsoft and other software companies do?
     
  9. Georgina Rudkus

    Georgina Rudkus Senior Member

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    The TSB, specifically, states,

    "Repair Procedure 1. Inspect for proper installation of the PCV hose and Purge VSV vacuum line at the throttle body. Ensure the vacuum line is secured at the Purge VSV. If all lines are properly seated, this bulletin does NOT apply. "

    So, the TSB only applies, if the hoses are detached like in grom's case. If not, other issues will cause the DTC's.
     
  10. gromittoo

    gromittoo Active Member

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    I had a thought. Maybe all the update does is to pulse modulate the Purge valve, to limit high pressure flow, that might never happen in that car.

    There is no reason that such a large purge hose is needed for a normally operating EVAP system. I mean if I had just started the car in the desert after a "Cold Soak" of a cool night, but it is now 115 degrees, then maybe some pressure would build up. The day the first hose popoff occurred, is was high of about 75 degrees, and I was driving. The second time it was 70 degrees.
     
  11. Georgina Rudkus

    Georgina Rudkus Senior Member

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    It is noted that the part 25860-37020 applies to the Valve Assy, Vacuum Switching refer to both the categories; PREVIOUS as well as NEW,

    while the part numbers directly above refer to Computer, Engine Control (ECM/PCM).

    Using the logical structure of the table, the Part 25860-37020 is the same part number that was both used in the original install and was not superseded.

    I would aver that the issue was one of quality control for initially installed Part Number 25860-37020 or the particular parameters of each individual car. The software update is so the issue would not happen again, given the number of cars out there that never developed the issue that grom had.
     
    #131 Georgina Rudkus, Oct 20, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2021
  12. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    l'm sticking to my story that, whatever the technician might have said about "building up and releasing pressure", there is pretty much no way it can be taken literally. The pressure required to blow clamped hoses off nipples could not "build up" in any ordinary sense; other components like the fuel tank wouldn't withstand it.

    A key part of the picture is almost certainly going to be that we're not talking about some random unspecified gaseous substance under pressure; it is a mixture of air and gasoline vapor, and if provoked, that s--t goes boom. If that happens locally at the manifold, and the PCV valve does its job and prevents it traveling into the crankcase, and the purge valve prevents it traveling back to the fuel tank, that could be "pressure" enough to blow a couple hoses off.

    It seems I only thought I hadn't heard of this TSB before. :whistle:
     
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  13. Georgina Rudkus

    Georgina Rudkus Senior Member

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    Sounds like a perfect storm issue. It's like a computer crash that happens only when a exact number of operational parameters come together. Otherwise, it may never happen. It, however, happens enough that a TSB was issued.

    It also could be that the over pressure from the mini explosion destroys the evap valve. The valve is likely ruptured.

    If the rare perfect storm scenario is true, just replacing the valve without the software up date might be all that is needed.
     
    #133 Georgina Rudkus, Oct 20, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2021
  14. TMR-JWAP

    TMR-JWAP Senior Member

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    Did anyone else notice the fuel trims in the techstream screen shots?

    Post 40 photo 1. around a +20% short and +8% long, which IIRC, means the engine is running leaner than expected based on MAF and fuel expectations, and the computer is trying to add more fuel. I suppose that would be exactly what would happen on a huge vacuum leak, like a hose popping off the intake manifold.
     
    #134 TMR-JWAP, Oct 20, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2021
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  15. gromittoo

    gromittoo Active Member

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    1) I am surprised that when I bought this car as a TCUV from a dealer in Delaware in 2017, that this TSB was not automatically applied. The date of the TSB is 2015.

    2) I am quite upset with the current dealer's very poor communication. They don't return calls in a reasonable time. So on Tuesday the 12th, I had just dropped my wife off at her work. I was close to the dealership, so I just showed up. It was running, and I was told that the technician reccomended I replace the PCV, and then the Purge valve, and then do a "recalibration" for the purge valve. This made no sense to me. No mention of an explosion, or a TSB. The SM said I could probably handle the Purge valve, and gave me the part number. I took the car home.

    I put 400 miles on the car, and it was parked overnight on the street. When I started the car on Saturday, it did not go boom this time, but ran very rough. I decided showing up at the dealership worked, so I had my wife drive me there on Monday. I wanted a better explanation, but they insisted I have it towed.

    Tuesday afternoon, I got a call from the tech himself, and explained a bit more, and mentioned that it was a TSB. I later spoke to the SM, and told him to just do the work, since I can't do the software update myself. He said it might be done Wednesday Afternoon, if they can get the part. Otherwise Thursday. He gave me the TSB number and a quote of $700 (includes the tow). I suspect the $700 includes a duplicate Hybrid diagnosis fee of $280.

    I called today (Wednesday) at 4PM to get an update, and had to leave voicemail asking to get back to me by the close of business today.

    My thinking is to call early and if I don't get a quick response, show up tomorrow. I will then ask if they can do the TSB software update only, preferably while I wait. I can buy the OEM part on Amazon. I need to have two working cars so I can drive for Uber, and my wife can get to work. This not keeping me properly informed on the when the car will be done is not excusable. They are getting two stars.
     
  16. jzchen

    jzchen Senior Member

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    TS-Bs are only applied if the concern listed occurs, unfortunately, and within the applicable warranty period.

    REVVL V+ 5G ?
     
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  17. gromittoo

    gromittoo Active Member

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    There was a pending MAF out of range Pcode reported in that set of data, but at a time when the air intake was at 91 degrees., and 39mph. That would place it during the previous afternoon.

    An explosion must have occurred to cause the hoses to pop, before the photo you reference.
     
  18. gromittoo

    gromittoo Active Member

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    Stinks. I wish that it would have been a "recommended" firmware update, that would get loaded when other updates are being loaded. Like when I had the Inverter Update done in June, it would have taken very little effort to add this update.
     
  19. jzchen

    jzchen Senior Member

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    Actually, it is the new part number only. The reason being they know all affected models have the problem part. For example, in the case of the IM some cars came with the updated one, so they only replace the ones that have the old #s.

    REVVL V+ 5G ?
     
  20. rjparker

    rjparker Senior Member

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    I know the $700 is a chunk of money but they are liable to want a majority of it anyway for the tow and firmware update. I would be tempted to keep this repair entirely within their responsibility in the event something else happens.
     
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