Myth: there is a shortage of math and science in the U.S.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(JackDodge @ Nov 1 2007, 02:25 PM) [snapback]533476[/snapback]</div>

Yea, but Salzman is wrong. It turns out he made a sign error in the arithmetic when totaling the study results.

Tom

 

omg...

you are comparing students in the 80's????...by then, we had already gone thru YEARS of decline. check stats compared with the mid 60's.... i think a completely different story will emerge

 

I'd say that if Microsoft is claiming that they can't get enough good programmers, their software alone is evidence that weighs heavily in their favor in this argument.

 

i read the article and its spin didnt do a thing for me

 

As a former math teacher, I believe the big problem lies in elementary schools where teachers are very negative about math and pass that "can't do it" attitude along to their students. I've taught content and math methods for elementary teachers and found abyssmal skills and negative attitudes among these fledgling teachers. Parents who tell their children "I couldn't ever do math either" and students who keep asking "when am I ever going to need to know this?" are also perpetuating the belief that math is too difficult for most people. I'm proud that my 3 grandchildren think math is cool (my son was a math/physics major in college). Talking algebra with my oldest grandson is a blast!

 

yep its one positive study about the american education system in a sea of negative reports.

i work in a job where i see a constant flow of young people trying to work in the real world without basic tools. their level of grammar, math, reasoning skills, etc is appalling. the job is not technically challenging but does require some computer skills, a little math, etc. and the job pays based on how efficiently one performs the job.

our turnover rate is running at about 120% annually simply because they get frustrated because they are not making money simply because they have to constantly ask for help understanding very very basic math concepts. heck its cellphone bills, how complicated can the math possibly be?

say what you want about the study, i think its nothing but a BS... i love the line that we have graduated 450,000 americans AND OTHERS WITH PERMANENT RESIDENCY into the engineering fields... bet ya less than half have completely american roots.

 

I think the biggest reason is the "geek" factor. Kids want respect.

In this country go ask a bunch of students who their "hero" is. Some sports star is common.

Then I read that in Vietnam, Bill Gates once visited a school and was swarmed by the schoolkids like he was a rock star...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DaveinOlyWA @ Nov 1 2007, 03:56 PM) [snapback]533594[/snapback]</div>

Our generation kinda lost the aspect of a "safety net" when it comes to funds. I had to teach my parents about it... still working on it.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(n8kwx @ Nov 1 2007, 04:03 PM) [snapback]533597[/snapback]</div>

Bingo. I know a fair amount of people who work off this aspect. Hollywood will always be around

Most people my age (23) feel we need to do something to help improve this world. It used to be called quality (Rome?). My buddies and I feel it's good karma. In everything you build, work for, or alter; make it the best it can be to last the longest it can. Re organize things.. companies.. cities. mass trans portation. it's the best for the world as a whole.

It makes me wonder if we'll ever put this planet back together. Our systems thrive off of falling apart, or selling crap (cheap entertainment) at a low enough price to kill the economy. then you have "credit" which is crap.

Let's build colleseums again. we'll have huge spas too.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(V8Cobrakid @ Nov 1 2007, 04:28 PM) [snapback]533609[/snapback]</div>

A lot of students on my campus feel the same. Now getting them mobilized to actually do something is another story. lol

 

there's a bidirectional reaction to science that i see on a regular basis.

it's either to be feared- "regular people" don't understand it (and yes, these are my words, but describing the attitude i see from non-scientists)
or
it's to be respected- scientists are trusted members of society almost as much as doctors.

one thing that we scientists should try to do more of is to get our work out there by talking to non-scientists. we have this stereotype as being elitist and only hanging out with our own type... i could go into the reasons behind that another time... but i will admit that i have tried (and in the early to mid stages, done a crappy job of) talking to non-scientists about my work.

the thing is, people assume from the start that they do not/will not understand. someone asks me what i do and i say i study how 'teenage' brains respond to pot differently than adults. and let me tell you, half the time or better, i get something along the lines of "oh wow, that's cool but so far over my head, good luck with that" and the subject is quickly changed.

i'm happy to explain in layman's terms what i do and how i do it if asked. but so many people seem really intimidated when i say that i do any kind of scientific work, that i'm curious how we're doing so well in science education.

 

The major cohort of math and science teachers at the high school and university level is about to retire. We have the majority of our students who struggle with math coupled with hiring and retaining a new large group of teachers.

Even with entrance examinations, many community college students in California must take remedial math (6 weeks of addition, 6 weeks of substraction, 6 weeks of multiplication and then 6 weeks of division). Math is the language of science and even students who have completed math analysis courses struggle to apply what they have supposedly learned.

Read the Earth is Flat 2.0. We are not competing with those in the next town. We are competing with focused students from Europe, China and India. The US is severely handicapped when it comes to math and science.

 

I have an aptitude and an interest in math and science, but I was severely discouraged in high school by a terrible math teacher. She taught out of the book with not a hint of practical use, and I always had the feeling that her own abilities were maybe one or two lessons ahead of mine.

Now I use algebra, geometry, and trig in my daily work... as an artist. I'd even have use for some calculus once in a while, if I had retained enough of it in my brain to actually be able to use it still

I for one will be raising my children with a love of math, and an understanding of its usefulness. There are a lot of problems to which "think global, act local" can be applied, and this is a prime example. If you feel that your culture is weighted against math and science, do your best to put out a positive image and change the culture a little bit.

Video games and 3D animated movies take quite a lot of science and math to be realized, and there are plenty other examples of cool stuff being done with math and science.

Bush is doing his part too, right? I mean sending people to Mars will be pretty cool!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DaveinOlyWA @ Nov 1 2007, 03:40 PM) [snapback]533519[/snapback]</div>

I think you're exactly right. When the teacher must scale a test to get students to pass what is really going on? The standards are being lowered. Either the teacher doesn't know how to get the information across, or the teacher is too busy with discipline and has no time left to teach the kids who really want to learn.

SAT scores in the mid 400's were considered adequate for college when my kids graduated (late 80's). In the 60's that wouldn't get you past the front door.

I can only comment on the public school system since that is what I have experience with. I'm not too impressed with it. A major overhall is needed. Just my 2 cents.

 

in Wa State the imfamous WASL tests that all seniors must pass to graduate... well, ok, the INTENTION was to require all students to pass the tests. that requirement keeps getting pushed back because too few students can pass all the components of the tests which have been required for years.

only after teachers started teaching the tests did pass rates increase to the 70% levels. before that... well, we dont talk about that (just too embarrassing). its my prediction that the law requiring students to pass the tests before graduating will kinda just fade off into the distance

 

in Wa State the imfamous WASL tests that all seniors must pass to graduate... well, ok, the INTENTION was to require all students to pass the tests. that requirement keeps getting pushed back because too few students can pass all the components of the tests which have been required for years.

only after teachers started teaching the tests did pass rates increase to the 70% levels. before that... well, we dont talk about that (just too embarrassing). its my prediction that the law requiring students to pass the tests before graduating will kinda just fade off into the distance

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DaveinOlyWA @ Nov 1 2007, 09:36 PM) [snapback]533679[/snapback]</div>

could you say your last double post was your opinion squared?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(05_SilverPri @ Nov 2 2007, 11:31 AM) [snapback]533883[/snapback]</div>

No because one squared = one, right?