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NC looking to join states to tax BEV and PHEV owners

Discussion in 'Prime Main Forum (2017-2022)' started by pineprius, Apr 11, 2019.

  1. pineprius

    pineprius 15th Hole #4

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  2. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    get a coal roller. if you can't beat 'em, join 'em :p
     
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  3. citiprius

    citiprius Active Member

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    That's fine. But they should tax the ICE vehicle more for polluting the air and increasing health cost.
     
  4. bruceha_2000

    bruceha_2000 Senior Member

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    "He said the fees were developed based on simple assumptions that each car and truck drives an average of 15,000 miles a year and gets 20 miles per gallon, paying about $271.50 a year in state gas taxes."

    Ridiculous. Apparently everyone in NC drives a big SUV? Maybe they should institute a fee based on vehicle weight so the heavy gas hogs that cause the most road damage pay for it.

    At the very least they should set the fee based on "comparable vehicle". You couldn't get 20 MPG out of a non plug in Prius if you tried. Maybe they should base it on the EPA's MPG estimate for each vehicle. Yes more work but at least more fair. AND if one wanted to, prove the ODO reading on Jan 1 and Dec 31 and pay based on actual miles driven. Lots of people never approach 15K a year.
     
  5. 3PriusMike

    3PriusMike Prius owner since 2000, Tesla M3 2018

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    Simple algorithm: Garbage in, garbage out.

    Mike
     
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  6. pineprius

    pineprius 15th Hole #4

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    Interesting response, much like mine sent to the guy who laughed at the new proposal.

    Always a good idea to penalize people for good behavior that the government mandates. (CAFE) requirements. Whether it's tiny engines with turbochargers, or a PHEV, all the car companies are trying to do is increase fuel economy to comply with laws established by the do gooders. If a change is mandated, an average of 15000 miles a year is BS. It should be by weight of the vehicle, fuel economy and actual certified mileage of EACH vehicle, not just BEV or PHEV's. For example, we drive less than 7500 miles per car per year. In actuality, I'm not all that concerned, except that road use taxes are never dedicated to the maintenance of the roads, it's always sucked up in the general budget or BS light rail projects or other dim ideas. Time to spend less. Even better, allocate the extra tax on electricity I buy for charging to the road use fund. It would more than cover the BS proposed solution.
     
  7. KennyGS

    KennyGS Senior Member

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    Just another example of our government finding new ways of reaching into our pockets. They plan on getting it - one way or another.
     
  8. mr88cet

    mr88cet Senior Member

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    Sadly, as EVs’ popularity increases, taxes upon them are bound to increase. EVs used to be an imperceptible blip on the proverbial radar, but those days are changing.

    I suspect that all we can ultimately do is make sure that those taxes are a *reasonable* compensation for the taxes we don’t pay for road-maintenance via gasoline taxes. That, as opposed to a politically-motivated stunt patronizing oil companies.

    We also have to make sure that these taxes are both reasonable and convenient for PHEV drivers who still pay some gasoline taxes. “Convenient” in the sense that, if it requires some sort of continuous accounting for how many EV miles we drive, then that would clearly not be realistic.

    Meanwhile... Union of Concerned Scientists
     
    #8 mr88cet, Apr 12, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2019
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  9. smyles

    smyles Active Member

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    In before "why am I paying for public schools if I don't have kids" crowd shows up.
     
  10. mr88cet

    mr88cet Senior Member

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    Indeed! Energy-related laws must always incentivize efficiency and never disincentivize it!
     
  11. Prodigyplace

    Prodigyplace Senior Member

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    Why make it so difficult?
    NC requires annual safety inspections. Record the mileage traveled and tax based on miles &, perhaps vehicle weight.
    No vehicle license renewal without the tax being paid. DONE.
     
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  12. smyles

    smyles Active Member

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    Your suggestion is logical, but may not be technically feasible (read: $$$ to implement) as you'll have to have means of tracking mileage across all parties involved - dealers, tax offices, inspection stations, etc. Plus, what if NC car moves out of state, or out of state car moves to NC? How do you calculate car value 'mid-season' for whatever reason needed?

    The state plan is simple. Not the most fair one, but doesn't cost much to implement.
     
  13. bruceha_2000

    bruceha_2000 Senior Member

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    Fair to few I would say and highly unfair to people who drive vehicles that get even moderately decent MPG whether ICE, hybrid or EV. 20 MPG is disgusting and pretty much limited to vehicles that weigh more thus causing more road wear. I recognize that there are some people who require the functional abilities of vehicles that get 20 or lower MPG but that is not the vast majority of people. In the past there were state incentives to buy vehicles with exceptional MPG, the registration on my '04 was, for years, half of what other passenger cars cost. Some states have tax credits for purchasing plugins and EVs.

    • If you live in a state that has annual inspections, the annual mileage can be tracked basically free. Up to the vehicle owner to file the tax form.
    • Cars moved into a state must be registered, current ODO is collected at that time.
    • Cars moved out of state are lost unless (unlikely) the 'receiving' state has come reciprocal deal to provide ODO and the person registering has to pay the tax to the 'receiving' state's DOT which would forward it to the 'sending' state.
    Note that this does not suggest I am particularly in favor of a mileage tax as it assumes all miles driven are in the home state. While that may be true for some people, it is not true for quite a number. Unless all states have the same mileage tax calculation some people will pay more than they should, some less.
     
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  14. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    First off, equivalent single axle load(ESAL) is the metric used in determining the stresses a road will experience from traffic.
    1 ESAL = 18,000 pounds
    The difference between the axel weight of a compact car and full size SUV is a rounding error when it comes to damage done to roads designed for commercial trucks. Weather is likely responsible for more damage than the weight difference between cars.
    If you want bigger cars to pay more fine, I can think of one reason to do so off the top of my head, but be honest about why.
    Or use the US fleet average, which is around 27.something mpg.

    Then he ignores the fact that cars are taxed annually on value in NC, and hybrids generally have a higher value.

    Fuel taxes are too low to cover road maintenance now. A reasonable, and simpler, solution would be to use a mileage tax for all instead of singling out certain car classes and raising gas taxes.

    States I have lived in required mileage declarations with registrations, which are required upon moving into a state. Then the DMV is already a central database for such info. But really, we can let such issues go in order to keep the system simple. Otherwise, you fall victim to a lobbyist pushing their GPS system that costs more and comes with privacy issues.
     
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  15. smyles

    smyles Active Member

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    The privacy issue boat has long sailed with cellphones, on-stars, ez-passes and video surveillance.
     
  16. mr88cet

    mr88cet Senior Member

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    Typical existing per-gallon taxes make better sense than per-mile taxation, because they incentivize fuel-efficiency, and do a “fair” job estimating wear and tear on roads, in the sense that heavier vehicles typically get lower MPG. It’s also very easy to administer on a per-gallon basis.

    However, a per-mile tax scaled to the car type’s EPA MPG(e) ratings would work for me. The question is how that tax would be assessed and collected. Presumably upon annual inspections, although that might encourage people to skip annual inspections, just hoping they never get caught...

    Broadly-speaking, “smart metering” at all charging stations might be able to help, in the sense of being able to account for charging separate from other electricity usage, in addition to existing gas taxes in the case of PHEVs.
     
  17. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    I'm not calling for the end of per gallon fuel taxes. The administration is calling for a 25 cent hike to the federal fuel taxes. So now is a good time to discuss a per mile tax in addition to the fuel taxes.

    With fuel taxes still in place, a scaled mileage tax for efficiency isn't needed at first. It may as more cars shift to grid energy. Even then, I'm against it, because efficiency doesn't have bearing on the wear a car causes the road surface. If that is the reason given for the different rates. If the reason is to encourage more efficiency vehicle choices, then alright.

    People already skip the inspections and registering their vehicle. Doing so with a mileage tax in place will carry tax fraud as a penalty for doing so. The potentially of more cheating will be countered by the steeper penalties in place.

    Smart meters may be less invasive than GPS, but will add to the cost of collecting the tax. They also will do nothing for those that charge at home. Insisting people install such EVSEs for home charging will discourage plug in adoption.
     
  18. mr88cet

    mr88cet Senior Member

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    (PH)EVs aside for a moment, lighter-weight cars tend to get better MPG and tear up roads less, than heavier cars, which tend to tear up rods more.

    But independent of that, as you alluded, I too personally think that taxes aren’t strictly about recovering costs, but are also about encouraging certain behaviors over others.
     
  19. pghyndman

    pghyndman Active Member

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    Oh the irony, 25 years ago we'd pay several Gs penalty for gas-guzzler cars, those with a combined fuel economy rating under 22.5 mpg (trucks, SUVs, & other manner of smog spewing behemoths were excluded), fast forward to today where we can get up to $7500 credit for an EV.

    The EPA always seemed to have a (ahem) "woody" for luxury imported cars, rating the MPG estimates oh so poorly while blessing domestic automobiles with improbably high numbers.

    What makes sense today? How about electronic tolls using transponder data to determine from which of several categories vehicle passage is assessed.

    PS: My home state has not had tolls for years, but after travelling through many others that do, suspect it is time to reinstitute the system... hopefully with the proceeds being earmarked solely for transportation infrastructure.
     
  20. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    The Repub states are killing gaso hybrids by penalizing the purchase.
    Plugins are different story...among other things they get incentives, as you can see from the article, Tesla agrees with the plug-in fees. Its the no-plug hybrids getting the shaft unfairly.
     
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