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New ‘23 Prime - tracking MPG and energy?

Discussion in 'Prime Main Forum (2017-2022)' started by tovli, Jul 1, 2023.

  1. tovli

    tovli 2023 Prius Prime replaced 09 Prius

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    For the last 14 years I was faithfully tracking gas in and actual miles per gallon, (and tracked MFD MPG and num of pips left, and price paid), I am feeling a loss, as soon as I hook up the charge cable, I will no longer be able to track MPG.

    Is anyone tracking charge power / power cost with current gas price to yield savings? I’m not sure how to track charging.
     
  2. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    Congrats on your new 23 Prime. You must be one lucky person to find one available to buy. I have not seen the new Gen5 Prime (MY 2023 Prius Prime). My comment is based on the Gen4 Prius Prime (MY 2017-2022). If Toyota has not changed how they display the efficiency (MPG and miles/kWh), there is no easy way to monitor and record the HV portion of the gas mileage (MPG) or separately measure the amount of charge used for the EV operation. If you charge the traction battery from the wall and drive a PHEV with battery power EV mode, then your MPG will include the EV distance in the MPG calculation.

    If your main objective is to record and analyze the cost efficiency of the car, then the only way to semi-accurately keep a record of the both EV and HV portion of the cost is to measure the kWh used from the wall to charge the traction battery. I have used a "kill-a-watt" meter for my L1 EVSE for this purpose. If you use L2 EVSE, there are many that come with a WiFi app that monitors energy use during a charge session or installs a 240v watt meter on your L2 EVSE line.

    Toyota App has information on the charging and may display the kWh value, but from what I have read in other threads, it is extremely inaccurate (underestimate 30-50% of real kWh used at the wall). This seems to be somewhat common in many PHEV apps by various manufacturers. I currently drive Ford Escape PHEV. Its app reports the kWh used for each charge session, but the value is always lower than the actual kWh indicated by the "kill-a-watt" meter.

    BTW, if you just want to know EV vs HV which is cheaper, then you can just use the EPA-rated EV range and gas mileage. For my (MY 2017-2022) PPs, it was almost always cheaper to drive on gas using HV but the difference was not big. This is because I live in a region with a very high electric rate and relatively cheap gas. The only time EV mode saved money was when gas prices soared to above $5/gal in early 22.

    Here is the part of the spreadsheet I kept for 21 PP. I am keeping the same type of record for my current PHEV.

    upload_2023-7-2_10-10-25.png
     
    #2 Salamander_King, Jul 2, 2023
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2023
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  3. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    For your 2023 Prius Prime XSE, assuming the EV range of 39 mi and gas mileage of 52mpg, and it takes ~11kWh to fully charge the traction battery.

    The cost of operation is
    • eclectic rate ($/kWh) x 11 (kWh) ÷ 39 (mi) = $ cost per mile EV
    • gas price ($/gallon) ÷ 52 (miles/gallon) = $ cost per mile HV
    For my area, with the local electric rate of $0.34/kWh and the gas price of $3.40/gal. HV is substantially cheaper now.
    • For EV $0.096/mile = $0.34($/kWh)x11(kWh)÷39(mi)
    • For HV $0.065/mile = $3.40 ($/gallon)÷52(MPG)
     
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  4. jerrymildred

    jerrymildred Senior Member

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    As @Salamander_King described, I also used a spreadsheet to track electricity and gas use and then convert that to cost per mile. And cost is the bottom line.
     
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  5. Washingtonian

    Washingtonian Senior Member

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    I wouldn't be overly concerned about daily tracking electricity and fuel cost in your Prime. In my case, electricity is 13 cents per KWh and I once figured it cost about 80 cents to charge my car to get an average of 25 miles. With gas it gets about 50 mpg, so in either case it is an economical car. The important thing, to me, is that it would be interesting to hear the experiences of one who has been able to buy a 2023 Prius Prime. My local dealer says I might see one sometime next year. I am prepared to replace my car next year; the question is whether it will be with a new PP or a pure EV. Tell us how you were able to purchase your 2023 PP please.
     
  6. tovli

    tovli 2023 Prius Prime replaced 09 Prius

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    Thanks, It was a lot of luck, and being willing to drive 1400 miles round trip with one days notice.

    Perfect, have to have.

    Yes wow, perfect.

    One more day of driving till I’m home and can move that SOC% off zero.
     
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  7. tovli

    tovli 2023 Prius Prime replaced 09 Prius

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    Model:
    XSE

    Someone on the PriusPrime Reddit published a spreadsheet of dealer allocations. I started calling the closest dealers (South Florida), then the *one* in Georgia, then the *one* in North Carolina, and couldn’t believe my ears when the *one* for Daphne, Alabama said it was not there yet but should be available in the next week, and it was not spoken for! I asked what color because I had made up my mind not to have black or white, he said silver and I asked how much.

    He told me to hold while he checked on the price with the manager. He returned with the price and said the truck just arrived with the car. I told him YES, and put the non-refundable deposit on my credit card. I kept asking him over and over to be sure I was getting that car off the truck. He assured me if I could get there that afternoon I could have it as soon as “today”. I had to remind him I had 700 miles to drive to get there, but told him we’d be there in two days. (He told me no rush since the deposit was authorized - like oh yeah, I’m going to not start packing as soon as we get off the phone.)

    The trip there in 100 degree F weather caused a tire to start delaminating, which I caught in time, but we hade to finish the last 200 miles on a compact spare keeping the speed under 50. (Changing the tire in the sun at 100 degF was a little tough on this 70 yr old guy, but my Prime was calling me. We drove with the flashers on to let the folks coming up behind us at 80 to change lanes early. We had a couple idiots pass on the shoulder going way over the 70 mph limit, and lots of scares for the final 4 hours driving)

    The dealer filled the tank! (I bought a Lexus once where they put two gallons in and told us btw it takes premium.)

    The car looks better than all the pictures, just unbelievably phenomenal. The black interior is dark charcoal, not black-black, and the red is very deep, muted, not bright at all, so that too turned out better than expected from the pictures.

    Other than all the chirps, and train sounds, the most annoying thing is the car beeping at me to look forward when I’m looking left or right for a street sign or store in a strip mall.
     
    #7 tovli, Jul 2, 2023
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2023
  8. tovli

    tovli 2023 Prius Prime replaced 09 Prius

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    Location:
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    XSE
    I see that you rolled up charges into the next gas fill up. I have started my sheet not doing that but it exposed some issues:
    - I drove home 9 miles in HV mode (because no EV charge yet) so first EV mode "miles" value is not pure EV.
    - When I fill up next time, the miles value will not be useful for how many HV mode miles to use for miles per gallon
    - I want to maintain separate 100% HV mode MPG, 100% EV mode eMPG, auto EV/HV eMPG, and overall eMPG
    - First charge came at a cost with no mileage benefit so overall Cost per Mile is higher than steady state
    PrimeSpreadsheet-initial.jpg


    You are correct, but I suffer from over analyzing everything, nearly every moment of my life. I cannot hold a conversation because there are several parallel internal conversation analysis threads each with a meta level cost/benefit analysis. I complicate everything. 70 years of this and it has not waned in the slightest.
     
    #8 tovli, Jul 5, 2023
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2023
  9. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    You will have some technical issues with the way of your recording data and analyzing the cost. I rolled up the total charge (kWh) to the next gas fill-up because as you said, there is almost no way to separately record accurate HV mode miles (using a gas engine only) and EV mode miles (using the traction battery from the wall charge only). Unless you usually do 100% EV mode most of the time and use only HV mode on an occasional long road trip there will be some mixing of both EV miles and HV miles on your trip meter (or odometer whichever you use to track the traveled distance). Even in pure EV mode, if the engine fires during EV mode or you run out of EV range and then switch to HV mode before your next charging, you will have a mixing of HV and EV miles.

    There is no easy way to separate those two portions of traveled miles. So, I decided to track the total cost (wall charged kWh + gas used) at the fill-up. This way, I can at least get an accurate overall cost/mile (gas and electric combined). But there is no easy way to separate gas cost/mile and electric cost/mile. You can make an estimate for each cost, if you keep track of miles/kWh recorded on the Eco Diary and Driver Monitor data (that is if Gen5 still offers the same function as Gen4). From the daily average miles/kWh, you can calculate the miles driven on EV if you know how much kWh charge was used.

    I actually kept all of those data from Eco Diary and Drive Monitor both 1 and 2 and SOC used for each charge interval. So, for my 2021 PP after 12,678 miles, the estimate was as shown using the lifetime average EV efficiency value the car was showing on the Drive Monitor 2, which was 5.0 miles/kWh.

    upload_2023-7-5_9-36-7.png
     

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