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New Article: The True Cost of owning a Hybrid

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Main Forum' started by macreative, Nov 26, 2004.

  1. macreative

    macreative New Member

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    http://www.edmunds.com/advice/specialrepor...ds.features.2.*

    The Real Costs of Owning a Hybrid
    By Tara Baukus Mello
    Date Posted 11-18-2004

    As the number and type of hybrid vehicles grow, the interest in owning one of these vehicles expands. What initially only had appeal to a select group of environmentalists now is looked upon with interest by a much broader group, including those who are interested in the fuel savings and the environmental benefits, so long as they don't compromise performance, convenience or style.

    But let's face it; the sticker price of a hybrid vehicle is significantly higher than its gasoline-only counterpart. Will the improved fuel economy offset the extra cost? And, there's all that hybrid technology — what if something breaks and you are saddled with a high repair bill? We took a look at these issues — and several others — with hybrid owners to learn the real costs of owning one of these high-tech cars.

    Higher Purchase Price

    Hybrid vehicles do cost more than their gasoline-only counterparts. On average, the price premium is $2,500 to $3,000. Buyers, however, do have the benefit of a $2,000 federal tax deduction for purchasing a hybrid as part of the Internal Revenue Service's Clean Fuel Vehicle deduction.

    The deduction, which was put into place as an incentive for consumers to consider this new technology, was scheduled to decline gradually beginning in 2004 and eventually be phased out. Congress has extended this credit, however, offering up to a $2,000 tax credit on hybrids placed into service in 2004 and 2005. The credit drops to $500 for 2006.

    The tax deduction is meant to offset the additional cost of the hybrid, bringing it more in-line with the price of a comparable gasoline-only vehicle. Because it is thought that hybrids will eventually come down in price as demand increases, the U.S. government has chosen to have the deduction decline and be phased out. "The federal tax credit was definitely a selling point for me," says Michelle Anton of Los Angeles, Calif. Anton purchased her 2004 Toyota Prius after her Nissan Pathfinder was totaled in an accident.

    Several states also offer state deductions for the purchase of hybrid vehicles. Lee Boughey of Highlands Ranch, Colo., received a state tax credit as well as the federal deduction when he purchased his 2003 Honda Civic Hybrid in June 2002. "(The state and federal tax credits) made a big difference in buying the car," says Boughey. "It made me much more comfortable with purchasing the new technology because I was able to offset the cost with the credits." Boughey received the $2,000 federal deduction as well as a state deduction of $3,600, which was calculated based on his purchase of a hybrid as well as on the vehicle he replaced — a 1991 Mercury Grand Marquis that was sold for salvage.

    Insurance

    Another issue affecting the true costs of owning any vehicle is insurance. Because insurance costs vary widely depending on location as well as the driver's personal information, it was nearly impossible to determine if any of the hybrid owners we interviewed saw a change in premiums because they owned a hybrid.

    As a result, we looked at the insurance rates in our True Cost to Own calculations for all vehicles. These calculations provide an average insurance premium for a specific state the user chooses, taking into account vehicle make, model, body type and model year, but not personal information of the insurer. "Personal information, such as age, marital status, credit history, driving record and the garaging address of the vehicle are not considered and could greatly alter the actual premium quoted by an insurer," says Larry Laumann, executive director of data acquisition and research at Edmunds.com.

    For comparison purposes, Laumann calculated first-year insurance costs for all the versions of the 2004 Honda Civic four-door sedan including the Civic Hybrid. Costs ranged from $835 to $849 for an average driver in the state of California with the Civic Hybrid falling near the middle at $844.

    Repairs

    There's been a lot of talk among hybrid naysayers about concerns of repairs associated with the hybrid-specific parts, such as battery packs. Interestingly, not a single hybrid owner we spoke with expressed concern about this. "I'm not the type of person who would have purchased (a hybrid) the first year out, but by now I feel pretty confident that any kinks have been worked out," says Prius owner Anton.

    Since some, however, have seen this as an issue, we contacted Honda, Toyota and Ford to get the inside scoop on each hybrid vehicle's respective hybrid systems. All the hybrid-specific components in every hybrid currently on the market are covered by warranty for 8 years/100,000 miles or 10 years/150,000 miles, depending on the state, but these components have been shown to have a much longer lifespan in testing. "We've done testing on three continents, in a variety of terrains and climates," says Bryan Olson, Ford Escape Hybrid marketing manager. "We feel confident that the (hybrid-specific components) will last for the lifespan of the car."

    Honda, which has had hybrids for sale the longest, has watched its customers' vehicles carefully. "Our Insight has been on the road since 1999," says Robert Bienenfield, senior manager of product planning at American Honda. "We've done a lot of testing as well as have been monitoring our customers' highest-mileage vehicles, and so far haven't seen any adverse results."

    Like the other automakers, Toyota has also done a lot of testing of its hybrid-specific components. Its battery packs in particular have lasted for over 180,000 miles in testing. "We've looked at all the things that put stress on batteries, such as the discharge/charge cycles and extreme temperatures," says Dave Hermance, executive engineer for environmental technology at Toyota.

    Regular Maintenance

    When it comes to regular maintenance, most hybrids do not require any maintenance on the hybrid-specific components. One notable exception is an air filter on the Ford Escape Hybrid. "The air filter for the battery system needs to be replaced every 40,000 miles," explained Olson.

    The gasoline engine in a hybrid requires the same maintenance that it would if it were the only power source in the vehicle. That means oil changes every 5,000 to 10,000 miles depending on the vehicle and the driving conditions.

    Another component that regularly needs to be replaced on every vehicle is the brake pads, but with hybrids these last much longer thanks to regenerative braking. In regenerative braking, the electric motor becomes a generator and captures the energy that would be lost as heat through the brakes when the vehicle's brakes are applied or when it is coasting. Once the energy is captured, it is transformed into usable electricity, which recharges the batteries and in turn increases the number of miles than can be traveled per gallon of gasoline. An added benefit is that the reduced heat means less wear and tear on the brakes, which means that they don't need to be replaced as often as conventional brakes. "We've seen customers go 85,000 miles before they needed to replace their brakes on their Prius vehicles," says Toyota's Hermance.

    Fuel Economy

    One of the top reasons that people purchase a hybrid vehicle is to get better fuel economy and they are often disappointed that they don't experience the fuel economy numbers listed on the window sticker in their regular driving. "I just love my Honda Civic Hybrid, but I have been a bit disappointed that the gas mileage isn't better," says Ivey Doyal of Atlanta, Ga.

    To be sure, differences in projected fuel economy versus real-world driving can mean serious differences in your wallet over the long term. Unfortunately, there is a discrepancy between the EPA's fuel economy ratings, which are listed on the window sticker when you buy a new car or truck, and the real-world results that most drivers experience, regardless of the type of vehicle they drive. The EPA's ratings are the numbers manufacturers are required by law to list in all the promotional materials for their vehicles. Unfortunately, the procedure the EPA uses to calculate these numbers is outdated and isn't indicative of the way most Americans drive today. The EPA has made adjustments to its calculations to try to compensate for this. Even with these adjustments, however, the numbers still often differ from the real world. "We've seen where the typical driving style can be as much as 20-percent less than the EPA fuel economy number," says Bienenfield.

    While all vehicles are affected by this discrepancy, hybrid vehicles have the appearance of being affected even more so. "For example," explains Bienenfield, "A vehicle that has a fuel economy rating of 20 mpg may only get 18 mpg, while a vehicle that is rated at 50 mpg may only get 45 mpg. This seems like a bigger issue for the more fuel-efficient vehicle, but in reality both vehicles are off by 10 percent."

    In the informal survey we did with Honda and Toyota hybrid owners, fuel economy numbers ranged from 33 to 49 mpg on average, which reflected many driving styles and a wide range of commutes. While these numbers are significantly lower than the EPA ratings, all the owners we interviewed were happy overall with the fuel economy as it is still better than most gasoline-only vehicles.

    Perhaps what is most misleading about the fuel economy ratings is that they don't show how widely numbers can vary based on an individual's typical driving route. "Short trips are the harshest on fuel economy, so anyone who drives just a few miles in his typical trip will see lower mpg numbers than someone who drives, say, 15 miles to work," says Bienenfield. Our unscientific poll showed these results as well. Pittsburgh, Pa., resident Jen Bannan typically drives just a few miles in each trip and, as a result, had the lowest fuel economy of those we interviewed, averaging 33 mpg in her 2002 Toyota Prius. "Is (the lower fuel economy) disappointing? Sure, but I'm still filling up less than I did in my old car and the Prius is the best car I've ever owned," she said.

    At the opposite end of the spectrum, Civic Hybrid driver Boughey and Honda Insight owner Dana Dorrity of Tivoli, N.Y., have commutes of 60 and 50 miles one way, respectively, on roads with rolling hills. Both had the highest fuel economy of those we spoke with, at 47 mpg for Boughey and 49 mpg for Dorrity. Poughkeepsie, N.Y., resident Mary Koniz Arnold has no trouble averaging 50 mpg in her 2001 Toyota Prius (which she bought used in April 2004) on longer trips, but she averages closer to 40 mpg during her one-way commute of 10 miles.

    "To be fair," says Toyota's Hermance, "there is no way any two tests will give the range of consumer exposure in terms of driving conditions and temperatures. He continued, "We are really measuring the wrong thing. Since you don't get to choose how many miles you drive, we should be measuring the gallons consumed."

    Costs vs. Benefits

    Since hybrids have only been on sale in the consumer market for about five years, it's still a bit early to assess all the real costs of owning one of these vehicles. On the surface, it appears that the added costs are recouped with benefits such as the federal tax credit and the improvement in fuel economy. Maintenance and repairs seem to be average or slightly below average so far, and issues with repairs of hybrid-specific components are nearly nonexistent. Whether the benefits outweigh the costs in the long term will really remain dependent on external factors, such as if the clean fuel federal tax deduction is phased out as planned, and personal factors, such as the owner's typical commute and if he or she can get the optimum fuel economy benefits.

    For the hybrid owners we spoke with, any additional costs, perceived or real, were outweighed by the love of their cars. Everyone we interviewed adored their hybrids and many said that they would be unlikely to go back to driving a gasoline-only vehicle. Shelly Cohen of Seattle, Wash., drives a 2003 Honda Civic Hybrid and she is glad to know that there are some larger hybrids coming on the market, so she has more room for the two youngsters in her life as they grow. "When it comes time to trade it in, I'll be looking at the hybrid (Toyota) Highlander or the (Honda) Accord," she says. "I'll need something bigger by then, but it will be good to know that I can still get the environmental and the fuel economy benefits of a hybrid."
     
  2. BobA

    BobA New Member

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    As news and Edmunds articles go.. this is pretty good and from I could see in a quick read, fair...

    I had a $100.00 insurance increase over my 1995 Dodge Dakota, that I used as a work truck and being an outside sales person my rate was high.. this is a 2004 vs 1995 I expected to have an increase... I sold off two vehicles, when I bought the Prius... so I am actually breaking even.. with my friends at State Farm...

    Bob Andersen
     
  3. V8Cobrakid

    V8Cobrakid Green Handyman

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    Ok... a fair article for once.. but honda was not the first company to make a hybrid in 99.. and i'm not sure where he found his hybrid owners.. but there are plenty of people here who have no problem averaging 50-70mpg. When new, the prius does turn out a 40-50mpg average though. He should have hard about the guy here who achieved... was it 87mpg? and the hybrid insight always gets in the 50-70 range. these are the numbers that impress people.

    And hybrids have bee on the market for about 7 years.

    Oh yeah.. and that taxi company that has achieved over 200,000 miles without ever changing out his batter on a classic prius.

    I should write an email.. but.. i'm emailed out for today.
     
  4. DaveinOlyWA

    DaveinOlyWA 3rd Time was Solariffic!!

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    actually honda was first to market in the US with the insight... they did sell a grand total of ~400 before the first Prius was sold a year later.

    and the article still has some inaccuracies about the gas mileage. it only talked of the classics primarily. as we all know, there are several that are getting at or near EPA here. but they nailed the distance driven as being the biggest factor. not mentioning the winter formula gas was an oversight as i feel some of the lower figures probably had that factor to blame. i am now averaging about 48 mpg after a summer stretch of hitting the EPA figures so im looking at 7-8 mpg drop. (i do do short trip driving though, also with winter im doing less trips and that is also a factor. in the summer i averaged 2-6 trips of 50+ miles one way, now its maybe one a week)

    but i am very satisfied with the reliability reports and expected longevity statements which imho, are right on. iow, the hybrid system is a non-issue. should never have to be maintained. i realize that a few here have had problems even to the point of replacement of the traction battery. well that will happen. no one is perfect, including the battery manufacturer or Toyota. but i think Toyota has done a great job to insure that the system will provide worry-free operation for the life of the vehicle.
     
  5. V8Cobrakid

    V8Cobrakid Green Handyman

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    i know honda was the first in the US.. but he didn't mention the US. He mentioned companies in general. As a general statment, Toyota released the hybrid technology first.
     
  6. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    That's a term we need to stop using.

    It made of sense originally. But now that A/C has been added to the collection of components powered by the battery-pack, it's pretty clear that a lot more than "traction" is provided.
     
  7. DaveinOlyWA

    DaveinOlyWA 3rd Time was Solariffic!!

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    ok... "big battery" is easier to type anyway
     
  8. MarinJohn

    MarinJohn Senior Member

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    I don't care about the chances of recovering the extrra cost of a hybrid. I did not buy it for the mileage. I specifically purchased the vehicle because I am in a position to be able to support new and upcoming technology. My feeling was/is the only way we will ever get past current technology and the oil monopoly is to support the few companies who are willing to work toward future technology, and do it now. It used to be only liberals voted against their own pocketbooks, but after the most recent election, I see I was ahead of the curve nationwide in not voting (with my pocketbook) for my own self interest. It is only too bad all the people who voted to support Bush (and against their own financial self interest) won't extend that thinking toward supporting this new hybrid technology. Imagine...
     
  9. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MarinJohn\";p=\"53001)</div>
    Amen!
     
  10. greybeard

    greybeard New Member

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    :D I don't know about the terrain most people drive but whether it's a short trip or a long one, when I go home I have to go up a 2 mile steep hill. My mpg is always between 44 to 48 mpg average.

    What i don't understand is, if I only get 8 to 17 mpg going up the hill, why going down the hill at 99 mpg doesn't result in more of an average.
     
  11. V8Cobrakid

    V8Cobrakid Green Handyman

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    Nobody said computer systems were dead accurate. They simple have a set number of equations to work with to calculate these things. They are all off by a certain percentage.
     
  12. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    They left out an important cost-savings item, perhaps because it applies only to the Prius, and not to the Hondas:

    The Prius has no transmission and no clutch. Those are major repair items in old-fashioned cars. The PSD is constructed like a differential, and should be as reliable. And there is nothing in the way of a clutch. Never having to repair or replace these should be included in the long-term costs of ownership.
     
  13. prius04

    prius04 New Member

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    Plus, the "transmission" (for lack of a better term) is part of the hybrid technology. Thus it qualifies for the extra hybrid warranty to 8 years/100,000 miles.
     
  14. fyaeger

    fyaeger Junior Member

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    I found the article missing one aspect about "true cost" that I find missing from any discussion or article that I have read anywhere (although I'll admit I dont spend hours reading forums here or in car mags etc).

    *** Emissions/pollution costs ***

    What is the "true cost" of emissions, or more accurately, what is the true SAVINGS due to the LOWER level of emissions that a hybrid produces?

    I scoured the US government websites fairly thoroughly for such a cost/savings estimate and found one research article that attempted to delve into this, but it got very complicated very fast and did not "roll up" the details into a simple-to-understand number that people could easily relate to.

    *IF* the cost/savings of pollution could be described in terms readily understandable by Joe/Joan Q. Public, I expect there would be an even stronger move to/demand for hybrids. Isnt the pollution/emissions of a Prius about 10% of that of a non-hybrid similar-sized car? My spouse and I each own a Prius and the bigger factor (than fuel savings) for us was the pollution/emissions savings, not the mileage savings which one can obtain in a small number of non-hybrid vehicles for a lot less money.

    Fuel savings are often cited instead of emission/pollution savings even though (as I understand it) the emission/pollution reduction expressed as a percentage of a non-hybrid's pollution is much greater than the fuel savings percentage.

    If anyone knows of research that attempts to "simply" quantify the cost/savings of emissions of automobiles (or of a "ton" of emissions, the metric used at www.fueleconomy.gov), I'd like to know.
     
  15. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    fyaeger: I agree with you completely (as will most, if not all, here at PC). However, the American frontier/individualist mentality is only concerned with direct costs to the individual. Collectively, pollution costs us all. But if I cut my own personal pollution by 90%, it does not actually save me, personally, any money. I pay at the pump for my gas. I do not pay directly for my own pollution.

    And that's all the mainstream analysts care about.

    One thing about us tree-huggers: we do care about the economic and health effects of pollution. And when people find out that you care about that also, you'll be branded by the SUV crowd as a tree-hugger, and by extension a godless anti-American commie pinko.
     
  16. bruceha_2000

    bruceha_2000 Senior Member

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    Yes, and No. :) In the 4 vehicles I have owned, all driven ~90-100K miles, the only one that required transmission work was my last one. And that was MY fault. I tried to rock it out when I got stuck trying to crash a snow plow drift onto a side street. I didn't know one shouldn't/can't rock an automatic transmission. Stripped out reverse and had to have the tranny rebuilt.

    Now, that isn't to say that whowever bought the cars used might not have had to do transmission work however many more miles down the road. My point, is that for most people, transmission work is probably not an issue on cars they buy new since most don't drive them beyond the initial lifespan of the tranny.
     
  17. DuncanNixon2004

    DuncanNixon2004 New Member

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    environment vs. cost

    Clothes washer died last year.

    Choice of top loader at CDN$600 or front loader at CDN$1,000. Difference in electricity usage was 600kwh for the top and 186kwh for the front. Front also uses less water, less detergent and spins faster thereby clothes dry faster in the drier (when one doesn't hang them outside or inside to dry - weather dependent :D ).

    Put in a fish pond. Choice of in-pond pump or out-of-ground pump. Out of ground more expensive, harder to install but uses less electricity and is repairable. In-pond pump dies and it goes to the land-fill.

    New fridge coming up soon. Determining factor will be "How Energy Star efficient is it?"

    At some point in time, in every factor of our lives we will have to make choices for the future.

    The Prius is the future. We are all beta testers.
     
  18. V8Cobrakid

    V8Cobrakid Green Handyman

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    DuncanNixon2004 Do you mind if i print that? at first i was a little lost.. but i like the whole point. I think it breaks things down a little easier for some people.
     
  19. priusenvy

    priusenvy Senior Member

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    The effect on average mpg you get by getting infinite mileage on the return part of a trip is to double the mileage of the other leg. Think about it. If one-way is M miles and takes N gallons of gas, and you use no gas on the way back, your mileage improves from M/N to 2M/N. So 20mpg on the way out, and infinite mpg on the way back results in 40mpg. No way for it to go any higher, unless your car is able to create fuel in the tank.
     
  20. LewLasher

    LewLasher Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bruceha_2000\";p=\"53491)</div>
    Right, if you're going to treat a car like a disposable item that you throw out after only 100 kilomiles.

    My experience with Toyotas is that I would not expect any major component to fail within the first 100 kmiles. On my 1985 Camry, the original transmission failed at 168 Kmiles (and the replacement at 250 Kmiles); on my 1994 Camry, the original transmission failed at about 205 Kmiles.

    So I'll be watching carefully, optimistic that the Power Split Device is more durable than conventional transmissions. (After I eventually give up on the '94, now at 243 kilomiles ...)