New California emission standards for 2009

With all the older/mid cars in California.. if the Prius won't pass in 2009.. then the people won't let it pass. It would be too hard to get everyone up to date by 2009. Plus.. if the Prius doesn't pass, then every car you see will become obsolete. Very unlikely. I'm Guessing ULEV.. which all new cars have to quality for.. or.. they say :mrgreen:

 

The Prius would certainly pass - they are looking to reduce carbon dioxide which the Prius clearly produces less of due to it's strong MPG.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(prius04\";p=\"41558)</div>

 

What I don't understand is why the car companies would waste time and money fighting legislation like this.

As long as it applies to all companies, then so what if it makes your cars more expensive? Everyone else's cars will be too. And it should be easier for larger companies to do the development, so the ones with the biggest lobbying power would actually be the ones getting an advantage.

Compare Toyota, which is lobbying hard in Europe to get the next Euro V diesel emissions standards as strict as possible, because they know they've already got technology to meet it, while their competitors don't.

 

Presumably the laws would only apply to NEW cars sold after the law goes into effect. The point being whether the '04/'05 Prius already meets those standards.

Car companies fight these sorts of laws because they are run by people who get angry at anyone who thinks we need to conserve resources or protect the environment. They have an emotional response, and they connect environmentalism to the long-haired, anti-war, pot-smoking hippies of the 60's and 70's, who they found so offensive because they rejected the norms of behavior of the previous generation.

Decisions such as these (deciding to oppose environmental legislation) are made by human beings. And while there are certainly some voices of reason in industry, the decisions, in the end, are not made by reason, but by a complex process going on in the minds of the executives. And very often (in all of us!) emotion is far more powerful than intellect.

The human animal is capable of using reason to solve problems, but very seldom behaves reasonably.

 

Well, I understand (from the NPR article I heard about) that the new regulation is aimed at reducing greenhouse gasses from cars.

And since the 04-05 Prius is a PZEV vehicle (partial-zero emissions vehicle), I believe it would qualify.

However, I too would like to see some clarification. (It's the sort of thing I would expect Toyota to release a press release about -- "Prius: Ready for 2009, Today!")

 

I thought the PZEV only means that some of the time it emits nothing. (Sealed gas tank to eliminate fumes, and the ICE sometimes stops.) But the CO2 issue would be overall, and since the ICE has to run to make up for those times when the ICE is off, the PZEV (partial zero emissions) would be irrelevant.

On the other hand, the SULEV keeps general pollutants down, and the high mileage means less gas is burned, and less CO2 is produced.

Either way, if the Prius does not meet the 2009 standards now, the Big 3 will not come close to meeting them by 2009!

 

I believe that most of the US auto makers are worried about this law because they have built their product lines on "bigger", "faster" for many years now. For them to change their strategy, modify their product line, and retool their factories would be catastrophic to say the least. Many American auto-workers would loose jobs during the process, undoubtedly.

So, a gradual transition is necessary in order to help preserve the American auto-makers.

I believe the argument that they should have done more to help the environment, on their own, is fruitless. They sell what Americans, in general, want to buy. Legislation to mandate that Americans drive more environmentally friendly cars would be quite a rude awakening.

 

i have a friend in CA who thinks its a great idea and from what she told me... only the older vehicles would not qualify at the beginning. and the standards will slowly increase so that eventually only the new cars would be ok.

i guess that the big problem is the huge amount of exemptions that CA allows now... cars that are over 20 years old, are not classics, most are in piss poor running condition, and continue to be exempt because of their age. this law closes that loophole.

the law although it seems strict is a very watered down compromise. she was disappointed that the rollout will take 10 years. that most cars manufactured after the mid 1990's would be ok, etc.

i questioned her on some of this as what i have heard as far as reactions makes this a major hurdle for new car manufacturers. but she seem adament on the subject and she is active in all things environmental... she was on a committee for water quality in her district for several years when i was living there (San Jose) and was constantly making me go out and pass out info packets, drool over envelopes, etc...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel\";p=\"41772)</div>

Exactly -- that's what I understand as well.

Actually, in the sense of how California rates automobile emissions, I don't think these different ratings are assigned to different types of emissions. I.e., they don't stand for different types of emissions being eliminated, or different ratios of types of emissions.

The qualitative differences between PZEV and SULEV are more of how they get their results -- not the types of emissions eliminated.

Instead, I think (based on the California Vehicle Emission Fact Sheet comparison -- i.e., PZEV is cleaner than SULEV. (And AT-PZEV (the rating for the 04/05 Prius) is even cleaner).

That's the reason I thought the Prius -- an AT-PZEV car -- would qualify: it's the cleanest thing out there short of a ZEV car. (Which I think is either an electric, a hydrogen fuel cell car, or (?) something running on compressed natural gas.)

(Hmm... well, I think I've once again quibbled another technical issue into pure confusion... :roll: )

:iagree

 

At first I wondered if the CA reps were just making up numbers as the first articles I saw about didn't mention much detail. Today I found an article in the NYT that had a little more detail about it. Here's a clip:

"Industry officials said the plan would lead them to restrict sales of large sport utility vehicles and high- performance sports cars in the state. Regulators, including the state's staff of engineers, sharply disputed that and said the industry already had much of the technology to comply on the shelf or, in the case of gas-electric hybrid cars, on the road."

After reading that, I'd say the Prius was the inspiration to this new law. That is the CA engineers really believe it can be done based on what they see in the current Prius.

Also now I think about the $3000 added cost to the cars complaint from the car manufacturers. That is the same as the added cost to make a car a hybrid right now. You'd think the difference of that would come down in the next five years though.