New hybrids to get 500mpg

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Main Forum' started by problemchild, Jun 12, 2008.

  1. problemchild

    problemchild New Member

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    This seems to be the real deal, its quite amazing technology. Read the second post too.

    ..........
    EEStor Technology: The End of Batteries?

    by Adam Miller (see all articles by this author)


    (NaturalNews) For decades, battery storage technology has been a heavy weight on the back of scientific innovation. From cell phones to electric vehicles, our technological capabilities always seem to be several steps ahead of our ability to power them. Several promising new technologies are currently under development to help power the 21st century, but one small start-up looks especially well positioned to transform the way we think about energy storage.

    Texas-based EEStor, Inc. is not exactly proposing a new battery, since no chemicals are used in its design. The technology is based on the idea of a solid state ultracapacitor, but cannot be accurately described in these terms either. Ultracapacitors have an advantage over electrochemical batteries (i.e. lithium-ion technology) in that they can absorb and release a charge virtually instantaneously while undergoing virtually no deterioration. Batteries trump ultracapacitors in their ability to store much larger amounts of energy at a given time.

    EEStor’s take on the ultracapacitor -- called the Electrical Energy Storage Unit, or EESU -- combines the best of both worlds. The advance is based on a barium-titanate insulator claimed to increase the specific energy of the unit far beyond that achievable with today’s ultracapacitor technology. It is claimed that this new advance allows for a specific energy of about 280 watts per kilogram -- more than double that of the most advanced lithium-ion technology and a whopping ten times that of lead-acid batteries. This could translate into an electric vehicle capable of traveling up to 500 miles on a five minute charge, compared with current battery technology which offers an average 50-100 mile range on an overnight charge. As if that weren’t enough, the company claims they will be able to mass-produce the units at a fraction the cost of traditional batteries.

    "It's a paradigm shift," said Ian Clifford of ZENN Motor Co., an early investor and exclusive rights-holder for use of the technology in electric cars. "The Achilles' heel to the electric car industry has been energy storage. By all rights, this would make internal combustion engines unnecessary."

    But this small electric car company isn’t the only organization banking on the new technology. Lockheed-Martin, the world’s largest defense contractor, has also signed on with EEStor for use of the technology in military applications. Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers, a venture capital investment firm who counts Google and Amazon among their early-stage successes, has also invested heavily in the company.

    While these associations have lent merit to the claims, skeptics abound. Some have even invoked the term alchemy -- a word used in its derogatory sense to discredit 'pipe dream' inventions. "We've been trying to make this type of thing for 20 years and no one has been able to do it. Depending on who you believe, they're at or beyond the limit of what is possible," said Robert Hebner of the University of Texas Center for Electromechanics.

    If it is true, though, then it will be tantamount to a whole new post-battery era in technology. The company claims the technology can be scaled up or down for virtually any application, from pacemakers to use in the renewable energy sector (think solar panels). If it comes to fruition, the technology could revolutionize virtually every aspect of energy storage. Further, because it is based on solid state architecture and is not dependent on chemicals, the technology would be extremely safe, environmentally friendly, and benefit from an unparalleled lifespan.

    Zenn’s Ian Clifford has visited EEStor’s upcoming production facility in Cedar Park, Texas on several occasions. "To be very clear, this is not a lab that they are building. It is a full, state of the art production facility that is nearing completion, and we remain very pleased with their progress," he boasts.

    After several delays, EEStor plans to roll out the first production units later this year, and Zenn hopes to have cars featuring EESU technology on the road by Fall 2009.

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    Thursday, January 10, 2008

    Lockheed Martin Signs Agreement with EESTOR, Inc., for Energy Storage Solutions (LMT)

    UPDATE: HERE
    From the LMT press release:

    [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Geneva,Helvetica,sans-serif]Lockheed Martin [NYSE: LMT] has signed an exclusive international rights agreement to integrate and market Electrical Energy Storage Units (EESU) from EEStor, Inc., for military and homeland security applications. Specific terms of the agreement were not disclosed.[/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Geneva,Helvetica,sans-serif]EEStor, based in Cedar Park, TX, is developing a ceramic battery chemistry that could provide 10 times the energy density of lead acid batteries at 1/10th the weight and volume. As envisioned, EESUs will be a fully “green†technology that will be half the price per stored watt-hour than traditional battery technologies.[/FONT]
    “Lockheed Martin [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Geneva,Helvetica,sans-serif]has a wide range of innovative energy solutions for federal, state and regional energy applications[/FONT],†said Glenn Miller, vice president of Technical Operations and Applied Research at Lockheed Martin Missiles and Fire Control. “The EEStor energy storage technology provides potential solutions for the demanding requirements for energy in military and homeland defense applications.â€
    [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Geneva,Helvetica,sans-serif]EESUs are planned as nontoxic, non-hazardous and non-explosive. Since the EESU design is based on ultra-capacitor architecture, it will allow for flexible packaging and rapid charge/discharge capabilities. EESUs will be ideally suited for a wide range of power management initiatives that could lead to energy independence for the Warfighter.[/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Geneva,Helvetica,sans-serif]“Lockheed Martin continues to focus on providing our Warfighters with new and innovative technologies that will make their jobs easier,†said Lionel Liebman, manager of Program Development – Applied Research at Lockheed Martin Missiles and Fire Control. “Our ruggedized BattPackâ„¢ energy storage unit generated considerable interest at the Association of the United States Army Annual Meeting in October 2007 for its potential for fuel savings in vehicular silent watch applications. The potential of an even safer, smaller and more powerful EESU in BattPackâ„¢ would significantly enhance the Warfighter’s capabilities.â€[/FONT]
    __________________
     
  2. rigormortis

    rigormortis Active Member

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    how can something with 1/10th the energy density of a nickel metal hydrate battery
    give you 500 mpg?

    i thought ultra capacitors pretty much have a run time of a few seconds before you had to charge it again
     
  3. chogan2

    chogan2 Senior Member

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    That'll be quite something if it happens. My understanding is that they don't wear out as batteries do (or they wear really, really slowly). On the other hand, the "rapid rate of discharge" thing can also be read "goes off like a bomb if shorted". But it's 500 miles per charge, not 500 mpg. They'd still use (nearly) the same electricity as a Liion-powered vehicle. Call it 150 mpg-equivalent for a Prius-sized vehicle.

    The Wikipedia article on EEStor is a good read:

    EEstor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Basically, what they are claiming is two to three orders of magnitude better than anybody else has ever demonstrated. That really will be quite something if it works.
     
  4. hobbit

    hobbit Senior Member

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    I love how these people can never get watt-hours vs. watts
    straight, and the difference between energy density and
    POWER density.
    .
    And if the thing actually pans out to be what they say it's going
    to be and the military sucks them all up because they get all
    the cool stuff first, the rest of us aren't going to get squat.
    .
    _H*
     
  5. Danny Hamilton

    Danny Hamilton Active Member

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    Agreed, something just isn't right about the information in the original post.

    It mentions specific energy (density?) which is typically measured in Wh/kg and then gives a number stated as W/kg (a measurement of power density). Assuming that the typo is in the units of measurement, this would perhaps indicate that the energy density is 280 watt hours per kilogram.

    Now a Lithium Ion might be around 160WH/kg, so 280Wh/kg is only a 75% improvement, not "more than double". Furthermore lead acid power density is somewhere around 40 Wh/kg, meaning that the EESU (if it can live up to the hype here) is about 7 times the energy density of lead acid, not "a whopping 10 times".

    It gets really odd when comments like "10 times the energy density of lead acid batteries at 1/10th the weight and volume" come along. energy density is a ratio between energy and weight. So the number for energy density has already accounted for the weight. It would be like stating that the Prius gets twice the MPG of another car at half the weight and volume of gasoline.

    I'm not saying that EEStor hasn't managed to create a significant new storage system for electricity, but considering the number of technical errors in the quoted information, I'll take a wait and see position on it. I'm not convinced until someone who understands the science and the math writes the press release. Right now it sounds like a buch of marketing hype from someone who wanted to make it sound impresive, but didn't really understand what they were writing about.

    rigormortis: assuming they are actually referring to energy density (Wh/kg), then NiMH might get about 80 Wh/kg. As such they are claiming an energy density of about 3.5 times that of NiMH, not 1/10.
     
  6. stevecaz

    stevecaz New Member

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    This is old(ish) news, but not really publicized. It sounds like with the new world order changing on energy thoughts, they are becoming emboldened to step further into the open.
    The Lockheed deal is good, or at least a cover, because IF the technology is true, a big IF until proof is on the pavement, then these guys need serious government/military security protection, less they find a laser on their forehead coming from a Saudi's rifle.

    The gasoline engine is extinct tomorrow with a breakthrough battery development. Its as simple as that, which may be as "simple" as turning lead to gold but I hope not.

    Of course it would take a years for the changeover to occur. However it would in an instant devastate all oil producing countries, who would have no choice but to charge $500 barrel for the few years they would have remaining of supplying it.
     
  7. MagneticGrayIndy

    MagneticGrayIndy 06Prius;94M Miata;65Rambler770

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    crude oil would still have a huge demand... plastics et al... but it would be amazing to not need it anymore for transportation!
     
  8. chogan2

    chogan2 Senior Member

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    Note that Zenn has the exclusive rights to use these for transportation, in exchange for their $2.5M investment. If this really works, let's hope Zenn has the (sense? grace? public-spiritedness?) to license the rights widely. Let's hope they don't sell it to an oil company. It's interesting that the inventor is the CEO of the company.

    In any case we'd be talking decades to make the changeover. The existing vehicle fleet has to wear out, and we'd have to change over production from engine blocks to motors.

    I still want to see what happens when the case is breached by a piece of metal in a car crash. I envision envision something like an armor-piercing projectile with an EMP that kills all the cars in your immediate area. (But I know zilch about the details. My actual experience in these matters is limited to having done the classic drop-the-wrench-across-the-car-battery-terminals maneuver.)
     
  9. nosliw

    nosliw New Member

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    i'm damn happy about 50mpg. if they told me they can make a Prius get 500mpg, i'd tell them to start replacing plastic with steel until it gets 50mpg again.

    that'd be cool, 50mpg without the SUV-fearing :D
     
  10. Tech_Guy

    Tech_Guy Class Clown

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    Hey, 500 mpg is entirely possible. All you have to do is redefine mpg as "meters per gallon". By this standard, even a Hummer already exceeds 500 mpg...

    Keith
     
  11. darelldd

    darelldd Prius is our Gas Guzzler

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    What is it about "hybrid" and gasoline mileage? I read the subject of the thread... but this is about pure BEV (well, we'll have to call it something else now, won't we?) But we're talking about non-liquid-fuel vehicle here. Not a hybrid, and no miles per gallon. Exciting subject line should be New EVs to have a 500 mile range.

    As others have pointed out, ZENN has the exclusive rights to use these in passenger cars (everything that is under 3,300 pounds before drivetrain - and that translates into over 70% of the passenger cars on the road.

    Seriously? You need to set your sights quite a bit higher! More metal isn't going to save you - though it may do more harm to "the other guy" in an accident.
     
  12. nosliw

    nosliw New Member

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    more metal can't hurt when it comes to mine and my families safety! but that's getting off-topic so i'll drop this *apparently* two-sided discussion.

    and Wth is up with the site? it literally took me 10 minutes to get from my homepage to this thread. servers must be having a brainfart.

    i want a big fat ford excursion with that hybrid super-battery system so it gets 50mpg+ too. i went camping last weekend and taking my truck + trailer full of ATV's set me back $100 in fuel. :eek:
     
  13. DaveinOlyWA

    DaveinOlyWA 3rd Time was Solariffic!!

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    already talked about this several months ago when Zenn announced the development of the "CityZenn"

    its an all EV 4 passenger car, 80 mph, 250 mile range using the eestor Caps. what it boils down to is 54 KWH of storage weighing less than current Pri traction battery. (actual weight about 85 lbs.... in the article, if you did the math, they are off by a factor of 10... under their formula, the cap would weigh around 800 lbs.)

    the CityZenn can quick charge (special equipment needed... obviously years away before that infrastructure is available) or charged the slow way on standard 15 amp 110 volt home circuit

    but most did not believe me when i posted it, so we will see what happens next fall.
     
  14. Flying White Dutchman

    Flying White Dutchman Senior Member

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    nice if this wil work!
    even with the real figures
     
  15. rigormortis

    rigormortis Active Member

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    as far as i read , capacitors would just regulate or assist in the charge going to the battery and i bet if you replaced every single cell in the prius traction battery with a capacitor you would not get more then 7 or 30 seconds of power out of it.

    i mean come on, its a capacitor
     
  16. patsparks

    patsparks An Aussie perspective

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    This hybrid gets a minimum of 157mpg and ....











    [​IMG]
    ... the harder you pedal the beter the fuel consumption.
     
  17. DaveinOlyWA

    DaveinOlyWA 3rd Time was Solariffic!!

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    not "just a capacitor"

    if that were the case, it would not be news. this is a 54 KWH capacitor... it weighs 89 lbs. it has 5 times the capacity of my current lead acid configuration and it weighs LESS THAN one of the 6 batteries i have now (94.5 lbs ea)
     
  18. RichL

    RichL New Member

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    Last I heard they were having production problems. I believe the Zenn with the EESTOR system was supposed to be available back in 2007. Also EESTOR was having some serious financial problems last I read. I don't think their website is up any longer.

    Great concept however I will believe it when I see it on the road with the spec's as advertised.
     
  19. DaveinOlyWA

    DaveinOlyWA 3rd Time was Solariffic!!

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    nope. original estimate for CityZenn with eestor is actually fall 2009. financial problems may have plagued them before they got some corporate and military sponsorship. Zenn has only been aligned with them since probably winter 2007 at earliest. they announced a partnership for development around march of this year i believe.
     
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