Featured New Study Reveals American EV Confusion, Desire For Electric Toyotas

sounds about right

 

Just to get it out there: an electric Camry Wagon would be dreamy.

We'd find a use for an electric Yaris hatchback too.

No I don't mean that stupid Venza crossover, or the Corolla hatchback.

 

Just a side note on the article; Many Ford Mach-E are being sold to government entities, as the new platform for their shift to EV.

Did the reporter clarify or separated out hybrids and or plugin hybrids or just lumped them together as being an EV?

 

Right now, there would only be two people in the USA that would be interested in those vehicles. I'd be the one to wait to see if the other buys one or both of those cars and hope he decides to sell them 3 to 5 years later at a decent price.

But yes! People of the internet! A station wagon would be a perfect EV: more range, smaller battery, just as much utility as an SUV, better driving characteristics. And if you're into ham radio, you can actually reach the roof to change the antennas, said station wagon roof will give a really good ground plane, plus you can put on antennas that aren't shorties and still fit under bridges.

 

Hah!

You might hear my eyes rolling on 7.078.

 

The survey defined EV as including PHEV. Doesn't mean the respondents understood, and thought of hybrids too.

 

The survey defined EVs as BEVs and PHEVs. Toyota does indeed have two good PHEVs the prius prime and rav4 prime, they just aren't making them in large quantities. These are EVs and I can see why people say they would like them.

I have recently seen 4 different Mustang Mach-Es but this is dwarfed compared to the teslas I see everywhere. Of the new phevs and bevs I see in Austin half are non teslas. When the prius came out the majority of those I saw in austin were owned by government agencies.

The best selling BEV in the world is the tesla model Y, which pretty much is a performance station wagon although they call it SUV. Being categorized as a SUV allows Tesla to sell it at a higher price and still get tax credits. It is extremely efficient, with mainly the tires hurting city efficiency (starts at 19" wheels and tires). My guess is if the government didn't give SUVs easier regulations there would be more station wagons in the US.

Volvo does make a phev station wagon but the rav4 prime is more efficient. I don't expect toyota or any of the US makers to make a EV station wagon for the north american market.

 

Lacking high ground-clearance, the point of being a SUV is missed.

 

...and lacking a low, flat roofline it is missing an important part of being a station wagon as well.

The Y is the only Tesla I haven't had a chance to ride in yet. I worry it is like the S and 3 with constrained rear headroom due to the skateboard design.

Our tiny little Prius c has more rear headroom than either the S or 3.

 

after an enjoyable test drive with the M3, i climbed into a Y in the dealers. climbed is the operative word, and i have never had an suv to compare it to.

still, i would prefer the Y for its utility, but the price is putting off for me

 

Many claim that crossovers are the same as station wagons. I disagree.

The Y is a "coupé" crossover utility vehicle (CCUV?).

Higher ground clearance is nice sometimes. I wish hydraulic or pneumatic adjustable suspention were more popular and less expensive. Then it really would be possible to make a do-it-all vehicle.

 

Yeah, I've long since decided that crossovers were "the uncanny valley." Neither station wagon nor SUV.

Dead to my dollars.

 

Regardless of the naming, shorter in height and longer in length tends to be more aerodynamic and cheaper to design and build. Shorter height also means better access to the roof for things like cargo boxes, cleaning the roof (especially if you have a short wife who likes to clean, like I have), and (as in my case) interchangeable amateur radio antennas. A shorter vehicle is also less offensive, like if you accidentally pull out too far into the crosswalk and the guy in the right lane needs to see if he's going to make a right turn.

I feel that if I'm getting an off-road capable vehicle some day, it needs to be off-road capable. A crossover won't cut it. Otherwise, what's the point? I can go over some pretty bad roads in the Avalon. A crossover isn't going to be that much better.

 

The least expensive vehicle sold in the US categorized as a station wagon is the mini clubman. Compared to the toyota rav4 it is more expensive and less efficient. Most station wagons are much more expensive as they are built by luxury European makers (audi, volvo, mercedes). One reason the rav4 is less expensive is it is very high volume, and shares its efficient engine with the Camry and other Toyotas.

The rest of it is true. You can see around shorter vehicles, you have easier access to the roof, etc. The Subaru outback is classified as an SUV but looks like a wagon and started out that way. The subaru is 2" taller than the model Y and 1" shorter than the rav4, and much taller than those station wagons. The subaru does do better off road than the rav4, but I doubt many rav4 buyers are doing it to go off road.

It depends of the crossover. US regulations favored crossovers over station wagons, but most choosing a crossover like the rav4 versus a station wagon, want the higher seating position and ground clearance for snow. It doesn't hurt that the rav4 hybrid and prime are extremely efficient and priced lower than similarly equiped station wagons.

 

Gotta admit I like the Hyundai Ioniq 6, my favorite EV on the market so far.

What I don't like is that MSRP is almost exactly 200% of that of our current (2020 model year) family car.

hmm, while I'm at it it doesn't look like they've built any in the colors I like.

 

Yes but no.

You're comparing vehicles that exist as if that's all there is to it. And when it comes down to the time to buy, yes, that's all an individual can do. If you compare a RAV4 against a Clubman, sure, the RAV4 is more efficient and less expensive. Which should I buy? The answer is obvious.

But what about the vehicles that could exist? Sure, we could go let our wildest immaginations take the best of us here. But on the other hand, physics are physics. What if there were a Camry Wagon hybrid or a Prius Wagon? Then what? Would it likely get the same or worse fuel mileage than a RAV4, assuming both have the same engine and hybrid system? Well, the laws of physics are quite clear. Aerodynamic drag is the frontal area multiplied by the drag coefficient multiplied by the density of the fluid (air) multipied by the square of the velocity. So taller is going to require more energy to push the vehicle through the air, plane and simple. Don't believe me? Then why has the Camry always gotten better fuel economy than the RAV4, even back last generation when the RAV4 was only about 60lbs heavier than the Camry? It was less aerodynamic! You cannot make a taller vehicle and it not be less aerodynamic*!!

The drag coefficient also increases with shorter stubby boxy shapes and decreases with longer curvy shapes, like the classic aerodynamic teardrop shape. You cannot argue against this even though no one wants to make a vehicle that has a smaller frontal area and longer body. Why are airplanes shapped like airplanes? Why don't we just make a cubical box with wings on it and call it a day?

The reason there is no Camry Wagon is because people would prefer a RAV4. Even if there were a Camry Wagon hybrid that got 60mpg and cost 20% less than a RAV4, people would not buy it: they would prefer a RAV4. This kind of thing happened back when the crossover craze all started. Take for an example the MAZDA6 Wagon that was replaced with the CX-5 back in 2008. The 6 Wagon had more front passenger room, more rear passenger room, more cargo space, better fuel economy, more power and cost less than the CX-5, and people still prefered the smaller, more expensive, worse fuel mileage CX-5 to the 6 Wagon! They did to the point that Mazda killed the 6 Wagon in the USA back in 2008 and yet to this very day they still sell new CX-5's.

If Mazda came out with another MAZDA6 wagon, could it have more space than the current CX-5, and better fuel economy and still cost less than the CX-5? I'm pretty sure it could; I don't see why not. But the problem is no one would buy one. The same with a Camry Wagon hybrid. No one else on the planet wants one. So Toyota's answer to me is, "Here's a RAV4 hybrid instead." That's the best they can do because, well, they need to accomodate what the majority of buyers want.

I see the same thing in the world of EV's. People want pickup trucks and SUV's and crossovers. And when they think "economy" they think "sedan." The station wagon does not make sense to people because people don't see the world through the lense of physics and probabilities. "Oh, my Tesla Model Y is so efficient and aerodynamic!" said the EV customer who wanted a family vehicle. Me personally, I look at the RAV4, the Model Y and other similar vehicles and cringe. Personally I don't get it. It's neat what they've done, but on many levels those vehicles are way less than optimal.

I mean, yes, I must admit that it's neat what many companies have done to improve the efficiency of the SUV and crossover. 38/41mpg in a Toyota RAV4 hybrid is outstanding. But again, that doesn't mean that if a Prius were elongated enough to hold the same 10 carry-on bags that can fit into the cargo space of a RAV4 that it wouldn't get close to same 57/56mpg the current Prius gets. Physically it would weigh more but also could have less angled curves leading to better aerodynamic drag characteristics. And what would we have if someone actually did that? A wagon that gets 12% to 24% better fuel mileage than the crossover, that's what!

But no one wants a 57mpg wagon. No one wants an EV wagon. It's not happening, not because it isn't possible, but because of lack of popular demand. At least not in the USA or not in volumes high enough to take the vehicle from niche, rich man territory to a mass produced economy car that the masses want.

So you want to say the Mini Cooper Clubman gets worse fuel mileage and costs more than the RAV4. Well, you are right. But I still hate the RAV4 and will always hate the RAV4 and will never buy a RAV4 even though I want a family vehicle that gets good fuel mileage. The same with the Model Y, etc. and so on.

 

Hey you want what you want. I have no problem with that. I just was trying to explain to you why it was unlikely someone would build that station wagon you want at a good price for sale in the US.

Drag is cdA with the greater height and width of a crossover like the rav4 or model Y increasing that frontal area coeficient. But the model Y actually has less drag than the camry because its coefficient of drag (cd) is lower and even when the larger frontal area is larger. The prius v was really a more aerodynamic station wagon but its cd was 0.29 to get that wagon shape, compared to 0.23 for the model Y and a cd of 0.31 for the rav4 (clubman I believe is 0.33) compared to the camry hybrid's 0.27. To get the cargo area an aerodynamic shaped vehicle like the Y is going to get taller and longer. The rav4 and model Y have similar cargo capacity but to get it in that aerodynamic shape the Y is 11" wider, 6" longer, but 3" inches shorter in height with less ground clearance. So yes taller vehicles with lower cd can be more aerodynamic, it all depends on the shape. To me the rav4 looks better as a body style but toyota gave up some aerodynamics, just like all station wagons do.

US regulations favored SUVs over station wagons. European regulations favored station wagons. That is why all the station wagons sold in the US are european designs. Toyota stopped making the camry wagon for the US market soon after it introduced the rav4.

I am not saying this is a good thing, in fact I would like the regulations to be neutral, but it is the way it is.

 

Recent one example, yesterday I went to a Safeway and the five fast chargers were all full. It was raining, all chargers exposed. Those people were like troopers. A lady got a spot next to the regular spot I parked my Prime in, but apparently it was chad-me-o or something. I shopped, came out. There she is waiting inside the car for a spot still, in the rain. I was in there probably half hour shopping. I felt bad for her. Im all for EV’s don’t get me wrong, but facts are facts. I drove there and back on ev, trying to burn some charge from near full. These folks were probably visitors to the area and were going back home on Sunday with no other options.
Plus the electricity cost was high, over 40 cents per kwh.