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NHTSA - this is bad . . .

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by bwilson4web, Jul 29, 2010.

  1. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    NHTSA To Update Test Process for Five-Star Safety Ratings

    One of the most important aspects of a legitimate test program is to have a set of criteria defined BEFORE the test. You can adjust the test criteria once testing begins but without an initial set of criteria, it is too subjective. It means if someone wants to force a result, they take all of the results and construct weightings to give the 'desired' results.

    This is wrong from both an engineering and an ethics standpoint.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #1 bwilson4web, Jul 29, 2010
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  2. carz89

    carz89 I study nuclear science...

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    I concur in your general statement, but I disagree with your concern for the new safety ratings. What makes you think that new safety ratings have been established without any pre-defined criteria? What makes you think the testing will be subjective? The article does not say that there are no criteria, only that the criteria are different. That actually implies that there are criteria. I can't see how judgement can yet be passed.
     
    #2 carz89, Jul 29, 2010
  3. xs650

    xs650 Senior Member

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    What I get from that article is the NHTSA didn't give Edmunds the new criteria. From what I read, I can't draw the conclusion that the criteria doesn't exist.
     
    #3 xs650, Jul 29, 2010
  4. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    I can't find the exact standards, but they appear to be tougher and include more scenarios.

     
    #4 austingreen, Jul 29, 2010
  5. carz89

    carz89 I study nuclear science...

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    The only thing Prius Nation needs to worry about is if Jim Sikes was hired as one of the testers.

    :eek:
     
    #5 carz89, Jul 29, 2010
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  6. DeadPhish

    DeadPhish Senior Member

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    3 yrs ago NHTSA determined that its NCAP testing was essentially useless. They found that 4 - 5 -2 stars meant nothing. There was no predictability in the star rating system. One of the major problems was that the tests had not been updated for decades. It's testing ( under pressure from Detroit ) was in no way as difficult as the IIHS testing.

    The DOT / NHTSA solicited views and opinions in writing for ways to update their testing to make it more relevant. This occured about 2 yrs ago.

    This is the result of the those comments.
     
    #6 DeadPhish, Jul 29, 2010
  7. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    I think Bob's point is not whether the new criteria are good or bad or whether the methods are good or bad, but rather that they may not have been available to auto makers BEFORE the car was tested and sold.

    Thus, if there's some new, specific test that an auto maker did not do that will result in a low score, that isn't really fair to that auto maker. Doesn't mean the car is unsafe, just that they didn't test or design for that test.

    Now, that said, if the tests are good and give valid data on auto safety I would certainly hope that none of the auto manufacturers have anything to worry about. I don't want them designing cars to pass a test, I want them to build them to be as safe as reasonably possible.
     
    #7 efusco, Jul 29, 2010
  8. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    From the article I posted it looks like the new standards were set in 2008, and they were complicated and different enough to not test until the 2011 my to give manufacturers time. I would like to know if they are good standards if anyone can find that information.
     
    #8 austingreen, Jul 29, 2010
  9. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    It says the criteria have not been announced. I don't mind if they call them V0.90 pending evaluation and issue a documented revision. It is absence of public criteria before testing begins that is the problem. Too much stuff being done "behind closed doors."

    Bob Wilson
     
    #9 bwilson4web, Jul 30, 2010
  10. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    I agree which is why publishing the criteria before the test with some tracing back to accident data is so important prior to the testing.

    The validation (user expectations being met) comes from a comparison of the new tests with future accident statistics. This has to be a continuous process, not just a one-time change. Right now, I don't see enough "open government" in this process. Worse, we've seen in the "Bell the Hybrid" activities showing the NHTSA is too often driven by things other than science-based, public safety.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #10 bwilson4web, Jul 30, 2010
  11. telmo744

    telmo744 HSD fanatic

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    Quite the opposite. Please remember: that "sir" can perform in many ways, I bet a crash test dummy role would be perfect for him.
     
    #11 telmo744, Jul 30, 2010
  12. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    As I was falling asleep last night, I realized there is a problem with "star" ratings. They have no details like those found in the FARS and injury databases. Then I realized there is a simpler answer:

    • fatalities per 100 million miles - by vehicle make and model
    • injuries per 100 million miles - by vehicle make and model
    • then use the above by EPA class of vehicle (subcompact, sedans, SUVs, pickups, e.t.c.) for each vendor
    Now this won't help with redesigned vehicles but that is OK. Simply put the manufacturer's data up for all of their vehicles in that class.

    What this does is encourage the manufactures to get their hazardous vehicles off the roads at the earliest opportunity and into safer versions. It encourages the vendors to look at the life-time safety aspects of their cars and pay attention to what their cars are doing in the real world. The ultimate test, an American driver on a USA road or highway.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #12 bwilson4web, Jul 30, 2010
  13. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    I am disappointed that a breakdown of the subtests is not going to be available. That is an open door to manipulation of the single test result.
     
    #13 SageBrush, Jul 30, 2010
  14. xs650

    xs650 Senior Member

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    This?

    "NHTSA did not give details of the new crash test protocol."

    That doesn't mean that the manufactures don't have the data. It means that the data wasn't given to the Edmunds reporter, assuming the Edmunds reporter got it right.

    I think that if the standards weren't available well before testing time we would have been hearing howls of protest fom the automotive industry.
     
    #14 xs650, Jul 30, 2010
  15. xs650

    xs650 Senior Member

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    If types of drivers were equally distributed across all vehicle lines that would have merit, but since drivers experiance and willingness to take risks is not equally distributed between makes and models of car, the data would be contaminated.
     
    #15 xs650, Jul 30, 2010
  16. F8L

    F8L Protecting Habitat & AG Lands

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    Very good point. Demographics certainly vary from make/model. For example, not too many 70yr olds drive Camaros and not too many 18yr olds drive Buick LaCrosse.
     
    #16 F8L, Jul 30, 2010
  17. DeadPhish

    DeadPhish Senior Member

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    Notice that no one from NHTSA is ever quoted on TV or in the press about the results of the various gov't crash tests. Whenever you see anyone on Good Morning America or on the Evening News it's always a rep from the IIHS. The IIHS is the arm of a private group ( the nation's insurers ) which has a vested interest on behalf of its principals to move the driving public one way or another.

    The NHTSA on the other hand is a part of the largest political body in the hemisphere, the US Gov't. NHTSA isn't supposed to 'promote' or 'knock down' one maker or another by saying that this vehicle is a deathtrap and you the driving public should avoid it ( potentially putting taxpaying citizens the xxth Congressional District out of work ) in favor of this other vehicle ( made in xxth Congressional District )*. That kind of 'promotion' can't occur in a political body. All the Feds can do is create the tests, set the criteria to judge those tests, publish the results and then shut up. It has to allow the public to draw its own conclusions.

    The IIHS OTOH can actively promote one vehicle over the other if the former will create less losses thus less claims payout for the insurers. In this case the reasoning IMO is 'purer'. It's only about money, filthy lucre, cold hard cash, no politics involved.

    *This of course excludes loose cannons like Ray LaHood.
     
    #17 DeadPhish, Jul 30, 2010
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