Not enough land for Ethanol

Sounds like it would be more efficient, and land efficient besides the side effect of powering cities, to convert land to solar stirling engine concentrators to power your PHEV.

 

If they find a plant that grows well in Canada and gives plenty of ethanol, I hear they aren't that crowded...

 

Popular Science said last month that it would take 70% of existing farmland would be needed.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(JackDodge @ Jun 16 2006, 01:11 PM) [snapback]272314[/snapback]</div>

Sounds like the farmers are playing the oil company game. " Just not enough land to drill on or plant corn ".

 

Don't forget, you gotta water those plants. Water will be the next crisis in America.

 

Ethanol sucks anyway.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(JackDodge @ Jun 16 2006, 11:11 AM) [snapback]272314[/snapback]</div>

Thats just "existing".. we can use thousands and thousands of wasted acres and quite paying farmers "not" to produce and put people to work....

Besides, we can also make it out of our trash.

But I agree.. Ethanol stinks... but its nice if its cheap.. but greed keeps that from happening.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(B Rad @ Jun 16 2006, 03:20 PM) [snapback]272347[/snapback]</div>

Yes, corn is not the most efficient crop for ethanol but the corn growers have the most efficient and effective lobbyists so that's what we end up getting stuck with. The reason that GM is pushing it so hard is because they're in on the deal: corn growing corporate farms get lots of money because the consumer has to buy lots of ethanol, GM gets to sell its gas guzzlers and make lots of money, politicians get paid off and the consumer ends up getting something that's not as good as it could be because what matters in this country is who gets paid not what's best for the country. It's pathetic how this country has turned in to just a bunch of greedy bastards.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(JackDodge @ Jun 25 2006, 04:44 AM) [snapback]276419[/snapback]</div>

Yep... money makes the world go round...

We have to figure out a way to make it cheap and still be good for everyone.....

I see it like the drug company issue...no one wants to promote vitamins and herbs because they cannot charge astronomical amounts for research. And so drug companys don't push many things that are good for you because "they" don't make the money for doing so.
They are not our parents, nor do they care about us.

I really think we need to "trick" big business.

Initially there will be big bucks in setting people up and every home thats built with solar, but once it catches on, it will be common place and power would be cheap and the price of solar cells would drop dramatically and research would make much power powerful and efficeint cells.. just like they are doing with batteries now.

Until there is a profit in it.. no one will research and make it better.
The prius is really helping lead the road... Yah for Toyota!

Energy is "everywhere to be tapped"... But I'm not sure we will make if that far as a human race for energy to be free... I think the middle east will blow up into Armeggedon before that happens! B)

 

Ethanol can be made more efficiently from plants such as switchgrass, which grows anywhere and doesn't require irrigation. Of course, no one is getting big subsidies to "grow" switchgrass. EIther the government is going to have to invest seriously in it, or enterpreneurs will establish small, local ethanol producing operations to make it out of whatever kind of plant source is available.
I did read that there is a plan to subsidize sugar beet farming for ethanol- I don't know how efficient that will be.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(larkinmj @ Jun 25 2006, 05:32 PM) [snapback]276602[/snapback]</div>

Sugar beets are a much more efficient source than corn is. At least that's what I've read. Of course, even if we have all of the land and water that we need to replace oil as a means to propel automobiles (I think that they said on that documentary Too Hot Not To Handle that 60% of oil is used by motor vehicles), we still need to conserve and stop being gluttons. If we stopped guzzling gasoline, we wouldn't need as much acreage to grow corn. I know, Americans would have to sacrifice some convenience, as horrible as that may sound, but if you want to stop a boat from sinking, bailing water out of it constantly isn't going to be effective until you plug the leak. Otherwise, you're never going to be able to stop bailing.

 

I saw the Discovery Channel (and also on Discovery Times) special last Saturday's Documentary.

What surprised me was that Brazil's Ethanol coming into the US has a 100% tariff just to support the American Corn farmers...

Now that Brazil wants no part of American, guess where those Ethanol are going to... China and Japan...

Guess we American's are really working hard for E85 adoption... NOT... :lol:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dipper @ Jun 26 2006, 02:10 PM) [snapback]276907[/snapback]</div>

I'm assuming that dipper is referring to Thomas Friedman's documentary, "Addicted to Oil", which was on the Discovery Channel this weekend (I was going to post a note about it on PC, but then PC went down.) I'm sure that it will be repeated, so I'd recommend catching it if you can (the plug-in Prius plays a starring role.)

 

Ethanol from corn is an unsustainable joke. It's simply not scalable. Water usage and soil depletion would rapidly become a problem. Furthermore the CO2 deduction benefits are marginal at best. As the ethanol industry matures I think that we'll see a shift to much more diversified feedstocks. Ag waste products and switch grass etc via cellulose processes will be a very large source of ethanol. Sugar beets will displace corn over time because the energy balance is much better. Urban waste may actually contribute as well. I believe that certain algaes can be cultivated and processed into biodiesel or ethanol. Depending on the cost that approach may also be a significant player.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tripp @ Jun 28 2006, 03:30 PM) [snapback]278270[/snapback]</div>

Hey Tripp, your trippin me man!

Anyway, I agree... using food for fuel and leaving the stalk as waste seems rediculous.... I like the sawgrass idea.... we can make fuel out of trash, grass, almost anything that has energy that can be converted.
Why not Hay, etc.... we have tons of resources.... we just have to access it without choking the goose that lays the golden egg because of greed.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Jun 28 2006, 04:43 PM) [snapback]278280[/snapback]</div>

Perhaps the greed needs to be channeled constructively. It's such a basic human trait that it's probably more effectively channeled than erradicated. Hey, I see you've moved to Tay-haas. You were up in eastern WA or OR before, right?