Oil Change question

Discussion in 'Prime Main Forum (2017-Current)' started by tonypalermo, Oct 13, 2021.

  1. Colorado Boo

    Colorado Boo Member

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    When our cars are new, my dealer only changes the oil in our Priis every 10,000 miles with the Toyota Car Care program...totally unacceptable. I change them every 6 months or 5,000 miles, whichever comes first. If you look at surveys of Toyota car owners with vehicles that lasted 200,000 miles or more, every single one was religous with their oil changes....every 3,000 to 5,000 miles....I don't remember every seeing one that only did oil changes at 10,000 miles.
    When I see filters/oils advertising, "Good for 25,000 miles" I get very angry...LIES!!
     
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  2. Georgina Rudkus

    Georgina Rudkus Senior Member

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    The oils and filters might last 25,000 miles, but in what condition? How much crud has been transferred to the engine? Wear and dirt are abrasive. Abrasives are often used with water and high pressure to cut even the toughest materials.

    Clean oil is always better.
     
  3. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Sand Pounder

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    That’s always struck me as absurd. Third gen US sched has that same statement, ‘cept with 0W20 and 5W20. Seems like an “engineer” just did a text search-and-replace.

    FWIW, for 3rd gen, Toyota Canada said 6 mo or 8k kms (5k miles), for normal oil change. And 90% of us are within 100k miles or so, of the border.
     
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  4. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Would be great if Toyota oil change interval took EV mode and other engine operation parameters into account, but they don't.

    Here's an old CR report form 1996 when the longest interval for an oil change was 7500 miles, and 3000 miles was for severe duty.
    Consumer Reports:Truth Motor Oils- July 1996
    "To determine whether frequent oil changes really help, we changed the oil in three cabs every 3,000 miles, using Pennzoil 10W-30. After 60,000 miles, we compared those engines with the engines from our base tests of the same oil, changed every 6,000 miles. We saw no meaningful differences."

    If you want to know sure if driving on the dirt road is an issue, have an oil analysis done. Most look at silicon, and higher than average numbers usually means dirt getting into the oil.
    The engines are different between those model years. They have different engine codes at Fueleconomy.gov. A poster mentioned that at least one of the changes were with the piston rings.

    Oil gets thicker from oxidation. As its molecules degrade, they become larger, heavier molecules that increase the viscosity.
    The HHR went 160k miles in my family before getting traded. Oil changes were done around 7500 miles when the oil monitor recommended them. No mechanical problems in the engine. I had the 1996 Taurus around the same amount of miles with 5000 mile oil changes. It needed a new EGR valve at the end. Only other issue was the DPFE sensor. Which also went bad in the Sable and Ranger.

    Whenever these oil discussions came up, a member on another forum would always ask, "How many cars do you know had their engine fail because of the oil?"
    The numbers on label aren't actual viscosity measurements. The actual viscosity of 5w20 at operating temperature(tested at 100C) is generally higher than that of 0w20. The difference is greater at the 40C of the cold viscosity test. At winter temperatures, the difference on start will be greater still.

    Long term, the resultant higher pressures from 5w20 likely aren't good for the pump.
     
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  5. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Sand Pounder

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    They could take a cue from Honda's Maintenance Minder system; it does monitor various factors, adjusts the maintenance timer accordingly. Still, in the Owner's Manual there's a trump card: change the oil at least yearly, regardless.
     
  6. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    Well, maybe different code but are they really engineered differently? All gen4 Prius including PP and e-AWD are referred to as XW50 models to have a 1.8 L 2ZR-FXE I4 (gasoline hybrid) engine. Even if a minor tweak had been taken place from the 2017-2019 models to 2020 and newer in the North American models, I don't believe the 2017 Prius PHV sold in Japan was any different from the 2017 Prius Prime as far as the engine was concerned.
     
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  7. Georgina Rudkus

    Georgina Rudkus Senior Member

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    An additional $350 spent over 10 years for oil and filters is a lot cheaper than an engine replacement, re-ringing or even a head gasket ten years from now.
     
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  8. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Sand Pounder

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    I suspect third gen engines are very similar too, as far as oil requirements.
     
  9. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    That's if I am keeping my car for 10 years. I plan to keep my PP only for 3 years or less. I will stick with free Toyota Care oil change 10K and 20K, and let the next owner worry about the longevity of the engine. Just for a few samples of cars I have kept longer than ten years, none has developed an engine problem (with one exception of Chrysler minivan), but all have developed rust problems. But I have not yet found effective ways to prevent rust problems on any car.
     
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  10. Georgina Rudkus

    Georgina Rudkus Senior Member

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    I wouldn't keep a car for long in New England, either. Even in my childhood many year ago, I notice that most of them were RUST BUCKETS.
     
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  11. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    The differences are minor, and would be to just allow for the thinner oil. They aren't big enough to require a change to engine name, like how the Otto cycle version is 2ZR-FE. The main difference between these two is the valve timing. The parts swapped for 0w16 would be extremely minor in comparison. With them in place, running a 0w16 engine on 0w20 is probably like running a 0w20 on 5w20.

    The EPA engine codes account for such small changes, and cover the entire drivetrain, including emission equipment.
     
  12. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    I may buy that between 2019 and 2020 PP sold in North America. But how about 2017 Japanese Prius PHV vs 2017 Prius Prime? I have not read any document showing they were built differently, yet they require different viscosity of oils. Very similar to Toyota cars sold in Canada having the recommended brake fluid change interval but not for the North American version of the same cars. I really think the oil viscosity is just another marketing strategy based on the acceptance and availability of the grade of oil in the market region. For one thing, I have not yet heard any ill effects caused by using 0W20 oil in 2020 and newer PP or any efficiency improvement over 2017-2020 model PPs due to the use of 0W16 oil.
     
    #32 Salamander_King, Oct 14, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2021
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  13. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    Silicon (dirt) in oil causes excessive engine wear. Drive without an air filter, and you will wear out your engine in no time. If you are driving on dirt roads and some of the silicon is passing through your air filter, you need to change your oil more frequently. Also, change your air filter and clean its housing more frequently.

    You should have a used-oil analysis (UOA) done at 5,000 miles to find out how much silicon is in your oil. If it is low, a 10,000-mile oil-change interval (OCI) is OK. If it is high, change it immediately and then every 5,000 miles.

    https://www.blackstone-labs.com/

    Also, buy this vacuum pump to easily sample the oil.

    https://www.blackstone-labs.com/products/vacuum-pump/
     
  14. Colorado Boo

    Colorado Boo Member

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    i agree...Toyota would be wise to upgrade our maintenance required notifications and also give folks the option of tweaking them to notify based on our preferences. In my daughters' Mazda CX-5, the maintenance menu is very customizable...you can set it base on mileage or time...I've never seen a Toyota with that option. (Would be a simple upgrade for Toyota, actually.) I would like maintenance notifications on engine oil, transmission oil, coolant, differential/transfer case service, lube jobs, tire rotation, power steering fluid, engine/cabin air filters and throttle body/MAF sensor cleanings. But in the meantime I'll just track it all with my spreadsheet on the computer.
     
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  15. MTN

    MTN Active Member

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    Yes, I like Honda's approach! They used to spec that the oil filter was to be changed every OTHER oil change! :)

    If you think that's wrong - you need to research filter caking - filters will be more efficient (i.e. capture MORE particles) as they are older and become more "clogged" - so changing a filter more often can actually do the opposite of what you think it does.
     
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  16. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Why wouldn't Toyota build the Japanese Prius engine for the 0w16 oil? It has been available there from the late 1990's. 0w8 has been on the market there for several years now. Any required differences would be a simple swap of parts. Like using tubing with higher ethanol resistance for one market, and using less resistant tubing in a market that doesn't use ethanol in the gas.

    Any harm that could happen from using the thicker oil would be after a lifetime of using it in the engine. I think it is more CYA from Toyota for warranty repairs to call out using 0w20. The efficiency improvement is tiny. Something that might help the car manufacturer on official tests, but most people won't notice in day to day driving. Over the entire fleet, it will help.

    The Skinny on OW-16 Oil | 2017-06-30 | NOLN
     
  17. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Sand Pounder

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    Yes, they still do. Honda dealerships treat you like a nut-case if you ask for that though, or at least they did 15 years back, at our "local". Between their attitude, and chronic (gross!) overfill, I walked away from that scene around then, went back to DIY.

    BTW, I'm seriously thinking about changing the filter AND oil, at every other "oil change". Toyota Canada tells me 6 mo or 8K kms, whichever comes first. Problem is: 6 months back for us, is only about 2K kms less on the ODO. Changing circumstances, COVID and so on, we're hardly driving. It's hard with my OCD, but I may just leave it till next spring...
     
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  18. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    No, it hasn't. SAE 16 became part of the SAE J300 viscosity specification only in April 2013. There was no definition of SAE 16 or lower viscosity grades at all before that. It wasn't a part of the ILSAC performance specification until ILSAC GF-6B was introduced in May 2020, but Toyota started using it in some of its engines a year or two earlier expecting the imminent introduction, testing it against the API SN PLUS/Resource Conserving specification only. API SP was introduced along with ILSAC GF-6A/B.

    SAE MOBILUS

    SAE 8 and SAE 12 were subsequently introduced in the SAE J300 viscosity specification in January 2015. However, they are still not part of ILSAC GF-6B or any other performance specification.

    SAE MOBILUS

    The current SAE J300 spec was published in April 2021:

    SAE MOBILUS

    What in the article, which misspelled "0" as "O," you are referring to are experimental oils that didn't abide to any viscosity or performance specifications. They performed poorly and typically quickly wore out the engines they were tested in. Nissan especially worked on such experimental oils, with no good results. Sometimes Toyota engineers don't know what they are talking about, especially when it comes to a subtle subject as the engine oil.

    All that said, Japanese are currently working on the JASO GLV-1 standard, which will define the performance criteria for SAE 0W-8 and SAE 0W-12, already testing them in the current Prius Prime engine:

    https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/0w-8-is-here-jaso-glv-1.327689/

    Now, you know that if someone comes and tells you about SAE 4 or SAE 0 already being tested for many years, you can tell them that they don't even exist. (SAE 0W obviously does exist though).
     
    #38 Gokhan, Oct 14, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2021
  19. PT Guy

    PT Guy Senior Member

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    The best info in this thread is in posting #14. The reason for 0W-12 & 0W-16 oils is for a slight fuel economy improvement due to the lighter viscosity oils. Of course, they must never be used in an engine not certified for them. In that youtube video I think the guy referred to 10,000 mile oil changes on a 200,000 mile engine. He did not mention the quality of the oil (there are some mediocre oils and some fraudulent oils out there) nor the quality of the air filter and oil filter (some are fine, some are junk when brand new). DItto for the uber driver with 10k oil changes...he certainly didn't drive a Prime, and we don't know the oil or filter quality.

    While there is risk from dirt roads, the questions already raised cover it---electrical operation?, how many yards or miles on dirt?, condition, quality, and fit of the air filter element? (A so-called high performance air filter really has bigger holes through it.)

    If I lived at the end of a long dusty road and did a lot of driving in HV mode on that road, I'd use the severe service schedule. Otherwise I'd stick with the normal schedule but with more frequent inspections of the air filter.

    Oil lubricating a piece of machinery has 3 jobs, to keep the parts apart, to carry away debris bits, and to carry away heat. For oil to thicken to the point where any of these jobs are compromised it is way, way beyond its useful life. As mentioned above, if in doubt, $30 for an oil analysis from Blackstone labs or another testing lab is money very well spent.

    I strongly disagree with the filter caking thing. Oil filters have an internal bypass valve that opens with a high differential pressure due to either cold oil or dirty element. This is the difference in pressure between the filter inlet and the filter outlet. The WIX 51394 spin-on for the Prime begins to open at 8 psid and is fully open at 11 psid (WIX has easily accessible specs). Bypassed oil is 100% better than a torn filter element letting chunks of dirt and torn filter bits into the engine. The bypass may be either in the spin on filter can or in the engine's filter housing. Air filters don't have bypasses, but I've seen clogged ripped air filters and I've seen air filters where the smaller particles have migrated through the filter media and come out the back side.
     
  20. PT Guy

    PT Guy Senior Member

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    Here is an SAE J300 motor oil viscosity chart for anyone interested:
    (Note that the viscosity grades with a W are for Winter. For example, a 20W test is completely different than for a 20 test. Gear oil uses the SAE J306 viscosity chart--trivia, SAE 40 motor oil is about the same viscosity as SAE 90 gear oil, but completely different additive package.)
    [​IMG]
     
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