>One less thing for anti-hybrids to whine about...

Well, then bye bye to tax credits.

The tax credit is computed by comparing the fuel economy of the new cars to the average fleet fuel economy of the same class of car from a few years ago. It wouldn't affect this year, but the tax credit is supposed to continue for the next couple of years. If new testing standards drop the fuel economy numbers of next year's cars, then they wouldn't compare well to the fleet average from the year used as the standard, even if the new cars get better gas milage than this year's cars.

 

you know Marlin, I hadn't considered that as a possible side effect of the EPA fixing the MPG problems. I would HOPE that the cars would be reclassified against the other cars being tested that year - so the new 43 for the Prius would be compared to the 19 for the Camry (or something along those lines) Actually, doing that would also likely reduce the tax credit (because by the time that we see this change, there will likely be many more fuel efficient vehicles on the market.) I'm not too worried about it - I don't see it being a quick move by anybodies standards

 

Just hoping they won't pass it until 2007.

 

Well, it probably really won't be a problem, since all the manufacturers likely to make cars that achieve the credit will probably have sold their 60,000 cars that qualify before the standard changes.

I just found it ironic that just months after Congress passes a tax credit bill pinned to fleet average MPG of 2002 cars, the EPA considers changing the testing standards to lower the MPG numbers of new cars.

 

The credit is based on comparison to MY 2002 city MPG.
The tax credit will be long gone for Toyota before EPA corrects its protocols.

EPA mpg estimates are currently a joke.
They are useful for comparing one vehicle to another but nobody believes the numbers represent the efficiency a buyer will see.
Correcting the protocols is LONG overdue.
IMO, the EPA should have a regular schedule of reviewing and refining its protocols and it shouldn't take an act of Congress to get the numbers right.

 

Well, then maybe the EPA could throw in new rules on EV-mode tests for cars that can switch to battery-only, and then an EV switch could be authorized for the US.

Last, best reason I heard for no switch here is that the EPA needed to test it in every possible combination of positions while driving (dozens to huindreds of runs, depending on using the switch once per run nearly every minute to every second during a given run) and they apparently wimped out rather than do it more than 2 or 3 times...

 

Who here wants to bet that the EPA will test air conditioning MPG by cranking it to it's highest level? Much like the Department of Energy did in it's tests, as explained in the article found in this thread

Air Conditioning Lowers Hybrid Fuel Economy, Air Conditioning and Gas Mileage

That article described how the Idaho National Laboratory in Idaho Falls, which is operated for the Department of Energy, found that A/C usage severely reduced the gas milage of hybrids.

Here's a quote from the article:

Would anyone here really be surprised that the Prius takes a 20% MPG hit when you drive with the A/C set to "MAX COOL", which runs the variable speed compresser at full power constantly regardless of the temperature achieved in the cabin?

 

So what?
As long as the numbers are accurate and the same protocols are applied to all cars, I have no problem with that.
You want protocols that are custom tailored to make the Prius look good?

 

Plus, their ambient temp range (68F to 86F) is so whacked, it probably only applies year round in Hawaii.

If I put the Climate control on Max Cold on a -20F day, will the heater go on instead?

 

LOL, the heat may not go on, but it may still warm the car

The problem with ANY estimates, current or future is that it does rely on far to many factors. If they really want the most accurate results, they'd have to have estimates based on various regions.

Personally, I don't think it's a big deal. I actually am still averaging 47MPG in my Prius and I've had it since Sept 1st and hit 10k miles yesterday. So for the most part, the majority of my mileage has been with the colder weather. Even with a few trips up to VT, I've still managed to get above 40mpg. I was even averaging 47 at one point.

In addition to temps, terrain and such, the other issue is the driver. You can really make a concious effort to get great fuel efficiency or decide that it's not a big deal. I drove to NYC from Boston yesterday and opted to travel between 75-80 to save a little time vs the normal 65-75 I tend to drive. I probably took a 2-3mpg hit for it, but I was ok with it since I still averaged 45mpg. My point is, one day you could get 50+ the next low 40's. And then the next day under 40. I think any EPA estimate will be flawed, regardless.

 

I wonder how much of our hard-earned tax payer dollars went into figuring THAT out??? Duh...

 

Quick Thoughts:

1) Wonder if this will affect CAFE complaince, or if the Auto Makers will lobby to get CAFE requirements lowered proportionally to the EPA estimate decrease

2) There will still be a YMMV disclaimer, and people will still whine.

3) The A/C test will impact the prius, but it will impact non-hybrids more, because the Prius A/C is inherently more efficient.

4) Some folks are rooting against Hybrids - from the Detroit News - Fuel test overhaul may dent hybrids

 

Hopefully they'll also take into account battery charge at the start and end of the test too.

The latest international UNECE testing standards now fully address the issues of testing the efficiency of hybrids (including plug-in and/or mode-switchable [eg the Prius EV button]) and battery-electric cars. Europe has yet to adopt these though. They don't test A/C though.

 

Well, it would negate the hybrid's abilities. The Prius has a variable speed compressor, allowing it to change the cooling capacity of the A/C to fit the need. If it's 95 degrees out and you set the temperature to 70, then it's going to run full out for the first few minutes, pulling a large load from the hybrid battery, but then when the cabin reaches the desired temperature, it cuts back the cooling capacity of the A/C to what is required to maintain temperature and pulls a smaller load from the hybrid battery. This allows the hybrid battery and electric motors to assist the ICE and MPG more than it would if you were constantly pulling a high load from the battery by running the compresser at full power.

It would be like testing all cars by driving them constantly up a 20% grade. Sure, all the cars would be tested the same way, but it wouldn't be realistic driving conditions. The Prius would have to run it's engine continuously and would probably perform no better, if not worse, than a conventional car with the same size engine.

Let's use home A/C systems for comparison. The high efficiency home A/C systems are two stage systems that can run at two cooling capacities. If the cooling demand is low, it runs at the lower capacity. If the cooling demand is high, it runs at the higher capacity. A traditional, less efficient home A/C system is only one stage and always operates at the same cooling capacity.

So, if you compare a two-stage system vs a one-stage system with the thermostat set at 70 degrees, then you will find that the two-stage system is more efficient than the one stage system. However if you test them with the thermostat set at 40 degrees, then the two-stage system would be forced to use it's full power stage and would be no more efficient than the one-stage system. Is that a fair comparison even though the testing conditions are the same for both systems?

I can understand why the Department of Energy lab tested cars by cranking their A/Cs to full power because how else would you objectively test a car with a termostat, such as the Prius, against a car that just has a mixer lever. That doesn't make it a fair comparison though.

 

They should run all vehicles through the same protocols.
Change in battery state across the tests is not applicable to other vehicles and so shouldn't be considered or rather, the tests should be of sufficient length that these differences are not relevant.

 

So what?
As long as the numbers are accurate and the same protocols are applied to all cars, I have no problem with that.
You want protocols that are custom tailored to make the Prius look good?

No, but a test protocol that is not reflective of real-world use of A/C is wrong. Like was posted, why not test while driving up a grade at full throttle? How about while pulling maximum GVW? Because these do not reflect normal driving conditions. Same reason the current protocol shold be rejected.

 

I agree.
The tests should reflect the typical range of driving conditions across whatever category of car they are testing.
I don't think the typical range of driving conditions should be determined politically.

 

I think it may have dipped to a chilly 65F this morning. :lol:

 

This being the Bush administration, you can be sure attorneys for Detroit automakers have had a steady dialogue with EPA, and that CAFE standards will be lowered proportionately. Or more.

Also, since EPA is now dominated by Bush appointees, it's not a stretch to assume that Detroit attorneys will largely WRITE the new EPA testing procedures.