1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

Open Letter to our Toyota Marketing Friends

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by nylion, Feb 28, 2010.

  1. nylion

    nylion New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2006
    167
    61
    0
    Location:
    Seattle WA
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    I know you monitor this site to get a sense of how some Prius customers (and wannabe customers) are thinking about the car. I would like you to consider this and, perhaps pass it on to your management.

    I have been a loyal Toyota customer for over 25 years. In that time I have spent nearly $500,000 on your products. The truth is that your products are so good, that in that entire time I have had virtually no contact with you for service issues.

    This changed last year. My 2006 Prius experienced unintended acceleration. It occurred several times. The last time happened at a red light with my foot firmly on the brake, and nothing even near the gas pedal. The story is on another thread in this forum.

    I took the car to a local dealer who couldn't reproduce the problem and said that they couldn't fix it. I called the Toyota customer service 800 number. They, in very polite terms, said I was lying. I filed a report with NHTSA, which didn't investigate.

    Now after over 30 deaths and countless accidents, you acknowledge that there is a problem. The cure is a floor mat or accelerator pedal fix. Steve Wozniac had a similar problem to mine. Toyota called him a liar too. He went to the press. He can because he is one of the Apple founders.

    Last week we learned that internal Toyota email revealed there was great joy that $100 Million was saved by telling the floor mat story instead of doing a substantive recall. It was also learned that a former NHTSA official, who was instrumental over the years in "avoiding" Toyota investigations, is now employed by the company. Both the House and Senate aren't buying that the unintended acceleration was a floor mat or sticky accelerator problem.

    All of this is strikingly familiar to the Ford Pinto problem years ago. It is also similar to the expose of the General Motors memos where they decided it was cheaper to pay death benefits than fix a gas tank problem. Toyota was supposed to be different.

    I've seen the commercials with all of the apologies. I'm not buying it.

    The reason I am writing is that I feel betrayed. I traded in my 2006 Prius and bought a 2010. How could I have done that? I did it because I firmly supported Toyota's effort to be the world's best producer of green cars. Actually, because I have always believed that Toyota builds the best cars in the world.

    I still think so. But now I realize Toyota isn't really customer-friendly. You are paid to convince us that we should buy your cars above other brands. It worked on me. However, now I feel deeply disappointed that your company is no different than GM or Ford back in the days before Ralph Nader.

    This site is full of people, including me, who have invested enormous amounts of money (the largest purchases of our lives) in your products. We need to believe we did the right thing. I am seriously doubting my decisions to invest in Toyotas. This saddens me because I really love my 2010 Prius. The problem is that I no longer trust that you, Toyota, is on my side.

    You lied to me. You lied to the press. You lied to Congress. You even lied to Steve Wozniak. It took over 9 months to get any belief that I really can't read my air conditioning display. I learned here there is a TSR. I will try to see if my local dealer will fix it. Based on my recent experience with Toyota, I doubt it.

    All of us here have a huge investment in trusting Toyota. Our lives and investments depend not only on the quality of your products, but the public perception that they are safe to own.

    Toyota is the largest car maker in the world. Recent events suggest you are behaving like the former top car maker, GM. Is being the biggest an irresistible temptation to disregard your customers after they purchase your cars? I am beginning to think so.

    What are you going to do to restore my faith. What will you do to help me believe my $65,000 investment in a 2010 Prius and 2009 Tacoma was wise? How are you going to restore my faith in the quality of your vehicles?
     
    1 person likes this.
  2. georgew

    georgew New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2009
    129
    10
    0
    Location:
    USA
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    That pretty much sums it up for me...
     
  3. georgew

    georgew New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2009
    129
    10
    0
    Location:
    USA
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    is this politics?
     
  4. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2003
    19,891
    1,191
    9
    Location:
    Nixa, MO
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    While I think your concerns about potentially serious problems being swept under the carpet are valid, I think the tone and facts of your open letter are lacking and unfair.

    For one, Wozniak didn't have a similar problem to yours, he simply didn't know how to use his cruise control properly. And HE didn't go to Toyota, he sent his wife.

    Further, I don't see any "lies", I see bad handling of the situation, poor customer service, and unfortunate and negligent press coverage of things like the Prius brake (non)issue.

    I followed your original unintended acceleration thread closely, and I do think there may yet be some odd electronics issue with Prius acceleration b/c of the information you posted long before any of the current press coverage began. But I don't think it justifies the wide reaching claims you've brought up in your letter. I know you feel cheated and mistreated and are certainly open to your opinions, but I think those opinions carry more weight when you stick to objective facts and avoid the emotional and subjective.
     
    1 person likes this.
  5. mad-dog-one

    mad-dog-one Prius Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2009
    1,181
    420
    0
    Location:
    Whereabouts Unknown
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    ----USA----

    I'm not aware of a sudden acceleration problem with the Prius and was never able to observe the brake delay in our Gen3. Have I missed something or is this guilt by association? I'm not taking sides here; I'm just trying to learn the facts.
     
  6. Paradox

    Paradox Prius Enthusiast / Moderator
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    29,110
    8,589
    201
    Location:
    USA
    Vehicle:
    2014 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    Five

    I've no idea if it does or does not exist for real, but speaking from personal experience I have owned a 2006 and currently own a 2010 Prius and have never ever experienced unintended or sudden acceleration in either car.
     
  7. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2003
    19,891
    1,191
    9
    Location:
    Nixa, MO
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
  8. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2009
    17,036
    10,010
    90
    Location:
    Western Washington
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    This statement seriously undermines your posting. He portrays it as a separate minor problem, a cruise control software bug, which the media has seriously misreported. And he acknowledges that it can be viewed as 'user error'. See CNN faked reporting about the Prius Brakes? and CNN Transcripts.

    Woz loves his Priuses ---

    "BLITZER: ... What, do you -- you own four Toyotas; is that right?

    STEVE WOZNIAK, CO-FOUNDER, APPLE: Currently, yes, one used by a son, one used by my staff, one used by my wife, one used by myself. And I love them.

    BLITZER: Are these all Toyota Priuses?

    WOZNIAK: Yes, they are. It's a car that has changed my life. I have a lot of expensive cars. I have a lot of big prestigious cars. But I prefer since 2004 to drive my Priuses. I mean, I love this car, the way it feels. It's so quiet. I'm rested. I drove to L.A. today. I will drive had 12 hours to Phoenix, instead of fly. I haven't flown in ages."
     
  9. nylion

    nylion New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2006
    167
    61
    0
    Location:
    Seattle WA
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    My letter was not a statement that I don't like my Prius. Hell, I traded in my dangerous 2006 for a 2010 V.

    If I got the facts wrong about Steve's complaint, that doesn't in any way damage my credibility or the validity of my concerns.
     
    1 person likes this.
  10. nylion

    nylion New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2006
    167
    61
    0
    Location:
    Seattle WA
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A

    You are a moderator? If you weren't in the earthquake in Chile, does that mean it didn't happen? Please! If you take the time to review the NHTSA database (do a search on Toyota Prius and "acceleration" -- you have to search one year at a time), you will find 100 plus complaints per model year of Prius unintended acceleration.

    I would have ignored your comment if you weren't a moderator. Whether or not you ever experienced unintended acceleration has nothing to do with my post. (see? I can use bold too).

    The fact remains that I did experience unintended acceleration and so did a lot of other Prius owners.

    Also, the Prius is a car, not a religion. It's truly ok for a Prius owner to have a problem with the vehicle and its manufacturer. Part of my own failing is that I just "believed" Toyota cared about me as a customer. This, upon reflection, was based on the fact that I never had a bad experience dealing with the company. The fact is I never had any experience dealing with the company because in the last 25 years none of my Toyota's needed any serious service.

    It's a good thing they make such great, reliable cars. Otherwise, their horrible customer relations would have buried them.

    For the record, I love my 2010 V AT. I drove a 2010 Camry hybrid when the recall work was being done and it made me appreciate my Prius even more. I love my car. I don't trust the people who made it.
     
    1 person likes this.
  11. robbyr2

    robbyr2 New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2008
    1,198
    149
    0
    Location:
    Commerce City, CO
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    V
    This thread brings up one of the problems for Toyota or any manufacturer. No vehicle is perfect, and any one vehicle is capable of having a totally unique issue. That doesn't mean that the complaint shouldn't be taken seriously. It just means that it may not get "fixed" as promptly as we would like.

    Say one 2006 Prius has a sudden acceleration problem. Toyota doesn't know of any similar issues in any other Gen II Prius. They can't exactly replicate the problem. Should they recall every Gen II Prius just to make sure? It kind of goes against the principle that the father always taught me: If ain't broke, don't fix it. Not to mention a good way to go out of business.
     
  12. Paradox

    Paradox Prius Enthusiast / Moderator
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    29,110
    8,589
    201
    Location:
    USA
    Vehicle:
    2014 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    Five
    You need to calm down, really. I was saying that I have never experienced it. In no way did I attack you or your post. And if you look again, I didn't quote you, I quoted another users post. I never experienced it in both the Gen II and the Gen III. You say you did. I am not discrediting you, if you say it happened perhaps it did, I was not there.

    Oh, and you asked a question so an answer is in order. Yes, I am a moderator.
     
  13. nylion

    nylion New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2006
    167
    61
    0
    Location:
    Seattle WA
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    I think the underlying issue is that Americans (and others, I am sure) form emotional attachments with their cars. This attachment extends to the manufacturer too. My father would only buy GM cars. He wouldn't even consider a Ford. This brand loyalty is what car manufacturers spend a fortune to build and maintain. So here we sit in a forum where many of the members have spent a very large amount of money on a Prius. The purchase extends beyond the car itself to the manufacturer.Face it, I doubt many of us would buy any car if we had questions about the quality of the company who made it.

    This is where it affects you and everyone else who owns a Toyota. You may not have had unintended acceration problems on your Gen II. I did. You may not have had a brake problem on your Gen III (I didn't). Regardless of whether your car experienced the problem, it should be pretty important to see how Toyota treats the people who did.

    I didnt freak out about the unintended acceleration problems I experienced beyond my very strong safety concerns. I recognize more than most, that anything involving software will experience problems. No one writes perfect code. It stands to reason that the Prius will have some bugs. Most are probably just annoying. Some can turn out to be unsafe.

    I didn't trade in my 2006 because of the problem. I traded it in because the manufacturer not only couldn't fix the issue, they insisted that it didn't exist and that I was lying. They brushed me off and told me that if I wasn't happy, I could file a report with the NHTSA. that's not what I expected to hear.

    I expected Toyota to tell me that this problem sounds serious and that they have had others who reported it, but at the time they were unable to reproduce it, but were working to find the problem. That response would have given me faith in the company's interest in me and my car.

    I can understand why Toyota wouldn't say that to me. Their lawyers would advise that they were implicitly admitting liability. Also, the company makes millions of vehicles a year. A few hundred unhappy Prius owners look unimportant in that context.

    Here's the thing. While it is true that the libability risk might be a bit higher if the company told owners that they believed that there "might" be a problem, the risk would be offset by customer confidence that Toyota cares and was actively attempting to help. Even if the outcome was that they were unable to solve the problem (which is the current case), all of us Toyota customers would know that the engineers at Toyota were on our side.

    This is similar to a problem Microsoft had. In the '90's the general perception was that Windows had lots of security holes that Microsoft couldn't or wouldn't fix. The company went on a campaign to actively address and respond to all discovered security issues. It let the public know what was going on. It coorperated with government and corporate groups to solve computer security risks. Now, the general perception is that Microsoft is highly trusted and people feel safe and know that the company will promptly address new issues. Issues come up every month, probably just as many as in the 90's. But now the public believes that the company is on their side and is working very hard to keep computing safe.

    This is a lesson for Toyota. Appologizing may be a very Japanese way of dealing with fault, but it doesn't do much for Americans. Companies earn our trust by consistently acklnowledging issues as the occur and taking immediate steps to mitigate or correct the problems.

    Some have asked why I bought another Prius after experiencing unintended acceleration with my Gen II. I have asked myself that question many times. The honest answer is that I didn't lose all of my faith in Toyota. If another manufacturer had a hybrid that had all the features my 2010 V AT had, I might have bought it. But Prius stands alone right now. It has no serious competition as a designed-to-be hybrid. I guess that is brand-loyalty inertia. It takes time to completely destroy 25 years of faith in a company. That's why I got the 2010.

    This inertia will run out; faster for some, much slower for others like me. Toyota has to understand that the bottom line effect of an expensive recall is small change compared to the cost of a major loss of brand loyalty.
     
    5 people like this.
  14. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2003
    19,891
    1,191
    9
    Location:
    Nixa, MO
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    That's a statement I can fully agree with...much less emotional/accusatorial and much more factual than the first one. I have stated openly that I think Toyota has handled this poorly from the start. Whether they simply didn't believe the reports or whether they did believe them but thought it better to not admit it they handled things from a PR perspective incredibly poorly.

    They pretty much keep their investigations and data held close to their chest--and I think that is very much a Japanese thing. But clearly, in our country, we want openness and honesty and to see potential problems handled agressively--and I don't think either the unintended acceleration issues nor the braking issues were handled that way...and they're paying a huge price for that now.

    I do believe this will lead to a change in their business model and the way these situations are handled. The customer support line needs to do more than pass on a message to an individual's service department...it needs to follow up, it needs to pass thing on to an investagatorial engineering department than can research each problem. They need to utilize ALL possible sources of information including the NHTSB, Insurance reports, their own internal information....AND online sources like PriusChat. While it may lead to some red herrings it is data that could form a much larger and more important picture of a rare problem.
     
  15. Prius Team

    Prius Team Toyota Marketing USA

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2008
    681
    1,817
    0
    Location:
    CA
    Vehicle:
    2008 Prius
    I'll do my best here as I can. While I'm employed by Toyota, I can't claim that I am omniscient about all internal issues and machinations, and I'm certainly not authorized to directly act in your particular case. What I can do is try to make you feel better about the Toyota brand by answering your questions - with compassion. I hope you take this response in that context.

    Know that our management has heard loud and clear the very issues you are trying to convey. They are not falling on deaf ears. There are a lot of new gray hairs over this episode here.

    I am very sorry our customer service was not up to the standards you have for us, and we have for ourselves. I think we all know we could have, and can do, better. That is exactly what our management has promised. It will take some time to show the results, but trust there are huge efforts going into making improvements.

    As noted, I think you may have confused issues. I believe what Wozniak was experiencing was difficulty in understanding the intended operation of our radar cruise control. Nevertheless, that point is irrelevant to your story, so I'll move on...

    I'll be completely honest with you... internally, until these reports surfaced, in my positioning in Marketing, I had never heard of either the $100M issue or the employed former NHTSA official. That's not saying they are or aren't factual... I don't know.

    However, the implication is that we are being deliberately dishonest. And to that, I will say this with the deepest sense of conviction and sincerity I can muster: in my 9 years with the company, I have NEVER, not ONCE, ever experienced anyone trying to deliberately cover or hide information or deceive consumers or regulators about ANY issue*. From my vantage point, it simply does not fit with our company culture (prioritizing respect for people) nor our main processes (consensus management). From my layman's perspective, cover ups require authoritarian scare tactics from the top... or maverick, unsupervised minions acting on their own. Neither of these seem like they could exist here in this culture. So, again, while I'm not omniscient in my position within the company, to me, the allegations of cover up are incomprehensible... as much as oil and water simply can't mix.

    Can I ask whether you felt this way before the current recalls and the attendant media and regulatory scrutiny? If so, fair enough. But I can't help think that a lot of the allegations and hysteria have helped fuel your angst with Toyota, whether they are true or not.

    FWIW, of course our overriding emotion is embarrassment and shame about how we inadequately dealt with these recalls, and a passion to improve in the future. But there is also a strong resentment among Toyota employees that we have to suffer all the allegations as if they are true just by being said so. It's as if guilty until proven innocent is suddenly appropriate for us. It feels like we're in the dungeon of the Inquisition and being asked to confess or be killed - what kind of choice is that if there's truly nothing to confess?

    You are disappointed and have a right to be, based on what you said. For that, I am personally sorry. We as a company have said we are sorry and we want to be the most customer-friendly company you ever deal with.

    "Lied." I'll admit it... that word hurts. I can't combat that allegation unless I know exactly which words you think were lies (and even if you pointed them out, I probably wouldn't know enough to explain them adequately). All I can say is that again, it is incomprehensible to me to think that at any point there was a plan to deliberately lie to anyone. It just doesn't fit our culture. You may have experienced bad customer service, you may have been told untrue facts by an unknowledgable or unprepared customer service rep, you may have heard a media channel report that we lied purposefully. I apologize for all of that... but I just can't imagine that behind it was intentional lying. All that said, if it turns out in the end that there was somehow deception, I agree that justice needs to be served - and would expect it to occur.

    I'll ask this seriously... at this point, what can we do? I am curious what would restore your faith. We've tried to sincerely apologize, but I understand that's not enough. We've implemented a plan to fix the known issues at this time, but I understand that's not enough. We're installing new processes to improve our problem detection and customer service, so that going forward, we can better acknowledge your concerns - even if we don't know what the answer is. So I ask, somewhat exasperatedly, what else can we do to rebuild faith in the dispirited Toyota owners?

    Thanks for your time.

    PS. To everyone else who reads this, I hope it makes you feel a little better about us right now. Prius Team is sorry we can't respond to all the discussion on this topic right now, mostly because we just have too limited bandwidth here. That, and the fact that we got to keep planning all the great future Prius products and such, you know...

    Doug Coleman
    Prius Product Manager
    Toyota Motor Sales, USA

    *Ok, I might have been a little deceptive about pricing last April Fools Day.
     
    cwerdna, Pri4Us, qbee42 and 11 others like this.
  16. spiderman

    spiderman wretched

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2009
    7,543
    1,558
    0
    Location:
    Alaska
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    II
    Thanks Doug for your candor. I can see the culture you speak of in the company, I just wish that would extend to the dealerships as well. It seems every time I come from mine I feel I have to take a shower. Since they are the first line of contact, it would seem appropriate to put some effort there too.

    Peter
     
    1 person likes this.
  17. Jim05

    Jim05 Occasional Quasi-Hypermiler

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2009
    115
    20
    0
    Location:
    Culpeper
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    IV
    +1 on the dealerships. They might not be Toyota Corporate employees, but leave a lasting first impression. After all, the first thing I see driving in is the giant Toyota sign.
     
  18. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2003
    19,891
    1,191
    9
    Location:
    Nixa, MO
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    +2
     
  19. Darwood

    Darwood Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2005
    5,259
    268
    1
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    More and more often now, a "car dealership" is part of a group of them. We bought both our Prii from a dealership "group" that sells:
    Buick, Chrysler, Dodge,GMC, Honda, Hyundai, Jeep, Mazda, Nissan, Scion, Subaru, and Toyota.

    Therefore, It's simplistic to point fingers at "toyota dealers" as a whole, when they have nothing to do with the car makers, and operate as a group culture under a parent company. There are good and bad dealerships of all brands, and good and bad mechanics, salespeople at each shop.
    Frankly, I've had great service from my dealer, but I'm sure that within the dealership group above, there are some bad apples, bad shops, shady people, etc.


    Regardless of brand, If your dealer sucks... go to a different one.
     
    1 person likes this.
  20. jdcollins5

    jdcollins5 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2009
    5,131
    1,338
    0
    Location:
    Wilmington, NC
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    III
    I agree with Darwood. The dealership that I bought my Prius from and the dealership that services my car are owned by a company that owns a group of dealerships, some being Toyota plus other brands, including GM and Ford.

    I have had good service from both of these dealerships so far, so have no complaints. We only have one Toyota dealership around Wilmington, but if I had some of the issues that others report, I would definitely find me another dealer, even if it meant driving to another city.