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P3000 and P3009, loud hum during regen breaking, low mpg...

Discussion in 'Generation 1 Prius Discussion' started by Kate Harvest, Sep 15, 2014.

  1. Kate Harvest

    Kate Harvest Member

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    First time poster.

    Bought a used 2002 Prius in December of last year. When I got it home the hybrid system warning light and the check engine light came on, but after reading through priuschat for a few hours I thought to take a look at the engine air filter, which turned out to be utterly filthy. Replaced it and the car ran fantastically for the next 8 months, which was plenty of time for me to fall utterly in love with how quiet it is and how smooth a ride it is.

    The carfax report for the car showed that its battery was replaced shortly before I bought it and that its transmission fluid was changed approximately 20k miles before that, so I thought (apparently mistakenly) that I didn't have to worry too much about either.

    During these 8 months the car saw my regular mechanic for oil changes twice, had a bad CV axle replaced and I was told the serpentine belt was glazing and may need to be replaced with the next oil change, but neither I nor my regular mechanic noticed any other issues.

    In late July of this year (2014) I was in a small accident. Another driver veered into my lane and sideswiped me on the front passenger side, leaving a very large dent. Aside from the dent, the car still ran exactly the same -- no new noises, no new warning lights, so I told the insurance company I didn't want to use my comprehensive coverage to get the dent repaired, I wanted to wait until I was officially found not at fault.

    That turned out to take about three weeks. No weird symptoms or behavior whatsoever during those three weeks -- the car continued to operate perfectly. In mid August I was found not at fault so I took her into the body shop. The body shop kept her for 8 days.

    When I picked her up from the body shop, I immediately noticed the engine seemed to be struggling more and that there was a loud hum audible during regenerative breaking. After watching the Consumption screen for a bit I also realized it was getting about 10mpg less than it was when I brought her in to them -- down from around 40-42mpg to 30-32mpg. About two hours later the hybrid system warning light came on. The check engine light is NOT ON, the code scanner O'Reilly Auto Parts had was not able to read any codes, the MFD is showing only the car with the exclamation mark in red... the PS and battery icons are not in red.

    The loud hum does NOT go away when I switch into neutral and does not seem particularly different when I switch into B.

    Having spent plenty of time on priuschat at this point, I started out by removing the air intake box from the car, soaking the MAF sensor in 99% isopropyl alcohol and cleaning the throttle body with throttle body cleaner. This did make the hybrid system warning light go away for a few days, but the loud hum and the lower mileage were still there, so a few days later I took it back into the body shop and asked them to check over their work and see if it's possible they damaged something.

    They kept her for two hours and said they couldn't find anything that could possibly be their fault and told me to take her into a "Toyota certified mechanic."

    I took her in to a local mechanic whose web page has a whole section boasting how good they are working with hybrids. They charged me $120 for a diagnostic which as far as I could tell basically consisted of hooking up their Toyota code scanner and reading out the codes, which turned out to be P3009 and P3000. When I asked them for the subcodes they told me they're going to be on my receipt, but my receipt only showed the P3009 and P3000 codes.

    According to them, Toyota's flow chart said the first thing to try in combatting these codes was a transmission flush, which they wanted $195 for and which I let them go ahead with. When I came back in they told me they couldn't figure out how to do a flush on this particular car, so they did two "drains and fills," and they assured me that the fluid was very burned and it definitely needed it. But it also didn't actually resolve any of the issues.

    They now want me to pay $367 to remove the HV battery at which point and either $262 to clean whatever corrosion they find off of it or $2400 to replace it with a new HV battery. They didn't make it clear precisely what they're going to do in order to decide which of those two options is the correct one.

    After they quoted me those rather scary amounts, I did this test on my own:
    2001 Prius, Code P3009 on a used battery | PriusChat

    Since I don't have a code scanner, I just pulled the terminal off the 12v battery for 30 seconds to reset the codes. And I gave it a full 2 minutes in "on but not ready" mode then a full 2 minutes in neutral before going into drive. I did this 3-4 times and every single time, the warning light came back on within 20-30 seconds of switching into drive.

    So here are my questions -

    (1) How safe is it to assume that the mechanic I took it to is mistaken and that it's actually the transaxle leaking high voltage and not the battery?

    (2) The impact in the accident I was in was on the passenger side. Is it at all likely that this could have caused the short in the transaxle, or even made an existing intermittent short much worse? I'd absolutely love it if I could get this repaired at the expense of the other guy's insurance.

    (3) The repair work the body shop did obviously focused on the passenger side as well, but their final receipt does show that they removed and replaced my front bumper and fender and the "left side marker lamp," which I'm fairly sure refers to the little orange lamp at the side of the bumper. Is it possible they could have nicked a high voltage line going to the transaxle while doing this, or dislodged some corrosion while doing this, or anything of the sort? I find it extremely odd that the car ran just fine when I took her in but malfunctioned immediately after coming back from them and would absolutely love it if I could end up getting it repaired under their warranty.

    (4) At this point, what would be the most sensible thing to do? Follow my mechanic's recommendations and let them play with the HV battery, insist that they replace the transaxle instead or sell the car for scrap and buy something else?

    (5) How safe is the car to drive in this state? I've seen numerous posts on here that say if P3009 is the main issue the car could be driven indefinitely without repair, but I've also seen 1-2 posts mentioning risk of fire and several mentions of the fact that Gen 2 Priuses would refuse to start up if they detect this condition. Should I be avoiding using it on hot days or higher speeds? Should I stay off main roads?

    I found this thread: Regenerative braking noise, This is not the normal squeak,whine,or hum | PriusChat which describes some symptoms similar to mine in a gen 2 Prius that apparently experienced a similar accident. Apparently in his case it turned out to be an engine mount that got bent out of shape in the repair after the accident... And I found this thread: 2001 prius code p3001 | Page 2 | PriusChat about a gen 1 with similar symptoms where there turned out to be a loose metal bolt floating around inside the inverter casing even though the "simple HV leak detection test" pointed towards the transaxle.

    All in all I'm kinda left with the impression that it's completely possible I'll end up paying $3000 for a new HV battery and $4000 for a new transaxle and the problem could still end up being something else... And considering I only paid about $3000 for the car, I'm kinda largely feeling like I should give up.

    Any advice?

    Thank you!
     
    #1 Kate Harvest, Sep 15, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2014
  2. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    The hum will be speed proportional but there are enough symptoms to call the transmission MG2 stator burnt. There is one last, definitive test, monitoring ICE, MG1 and MG2 temperature. From a cold start, within a block MG2 temperature will be much greater than MG1 and ICE temperature. I have seen MG2 temperature in excess of 100C (i.e., boiling water.)
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Work with your mechanic to locate a crashed Prius transaxle. Check the oil to make sure it is not burnt and swap. There is an advanced technique to replace just MG2 but I've not done it.

    Once the transmission is working, we can work on any remaining problems. But in the meanwhile, with the car in "P", start it and let it put a solid charge on the traction battery. Keep the car in "P". When the engine auto-stops, turn it off and complete the repair.

    Continued operation risks the inverter that sits on top of the transmission and whose coolant runs through a channel in the transmission. The 12V converter can fail and then the 12V battery will discharge to the point of useless. Save the inverter and park the car.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #2 bwilson4web, Sep 15, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2014
  3. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    1. Your test plus the described symptoms regarding the loud hum do point towards the transaxle.
    2. The transaxle is mounted on the driver's side of the passenger compartment. Unless you can show physical damage to the transaxle case due to the accident I doubt that an insurance company would accept your claim.
    3. Unlikely.
    4. If you want to keep the car I suggest you look into the cost of a used transaxle and its installation and decide whether that is an amount you wish to invest in the car. My guess is that this cost could be around $2,000.
    5. If P3009 was the only issue and you did not have the accompanying hum and reduced mpg, then I would say you could drive the car indefinitely. Since you do have the hum and the reduced fuel economy which points to a degraded drivetrain system, you will find that the problem gets worse and eventually the transaxle will fail. Bob's photos above shows a burnt transaxle stator winding which is typically the physical manifestation of this problem in the transaxle.
     
  4. Kate Harvest

    Kate Harvest Member

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    I couldn't tell you if the hum is speed proportional. I can't really hear it when the ICE is running, even with my windows open. But I can definitely hear it whenever the Energy screen shows the ICE isn't being used and the HV battery is being charged by the motor, and it definitely gets louder when I actually push on the bake pedal as opposed to just coasting. I can also tell you the red thermometer light has never come on in the instrument cluster... Shouldn't a high MG2 temp set that off? Or is it possible the short fried the sensor that's supposed to make the bulb light up?

    So... I should either scrap the car or find a mechanic who's willing to monitor those three temps with their scan tool and, if MG2 indeed comes up significantly hotter, replace either just MG2 or the entire transaxle, then?

    And if I choose to drive the car in the meantime, I should avoid doing so when it's particularly hot out or at particularly high speeds and should watch out for smoke or a burning smell coming from under my hood?
     
  5. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    The engine coolant is separate from MG1 temperature and MG2 temperature. It takes a Prius-aware OBD scanner to see it.

    I saw a Scangauge II in a 'bingo pack' at Auto Zone this afternoon for $200. You can add XGAUGE definitions to read out pretty much any Prius specific metrics. You'll need a slightly modified cable (see the stickies.)

    That burnt transmission hit 100C in less than a mile and we returned directly to the owner's home. Because of the risk to the inverter, I would not drive the car until the transmission is replaced and/or repaired.

    Replacing the transmission is similar to swapping an engine and requires assisted, heavy lifting. It is a moderately difficult job but can be done by an owner in their own garage. I recommend negotiating with a shop that has replaced engines or transmissions in the past as they will have the lifts and jacks needed to do the job SAFELY and right.

    Search for "orangeboy" postings as his efforts were well documented.

    Bob Wilson
     
  6. Kate Harvest

    Kate Harvest Member

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    Sadly I live in an apartment and don't have access to a garage myself, and while I'm technical enough to at least be curious about the electronic side of my car, I'm unlikely to actually work on it myself. Giving the MAF sensor and the throttle body a cleaning was actually a stretch for my comfort level.

    I've gone ahead and sent out Emails to 3-4 local shops that purport themselves as hybrid experts to see if any of them would feel comfortable putting in a new transmission. I'm still naively hanging on to the belief that problems of this nature won't be frequent enough to necessitate my owning my own scan tool... Is that completely unreasonable of me?
     
  7. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    Odometer reading of your car?

    Your car is 12 years old. You might be lucky and this is the only issue it has - or you may find that other issues pop up over time. In the latter case, access to Mini VCI (which requires a Windows XP or Windows 7, 32 bit OS laptop) will be really helpful as that provides essentially the same diagnostic power as that available to the Toyota service tech via Toyota Techstream.

    That will also provide you with visibility to transaxle temperature sensors as well as many other operating parameters, some obvious and many obscure, that are all being tracked.
     
  8. Kate Harvest

    Kate Harvest Member

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    Odometer's just under 186k. I could probably do a Mini VCF and track down a 32 bit copy of Windows 7 to run under VMware...

    I'm lucky enough to live in a suburb of Portland, Oregon. Hybrids are very very popular here so the number of shops that at least claim to be experienced working with them seems to be pretty plentiful. Though after having one of those shops ask me for $3000 to replace the wrong part I'm thinking I ought to take those claims with a grain of salt...
     
  9. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    GOOD, FAST, CHEAP, pick two:
    • $200, SCANGAUGE II, pickup from local Auto store. Some assembly required but can be used driving.
    • $30, miniVCI, add laptop with XP, takes a week from China. Turn-key with all metrics, not so easy to use driving.
    Portland is Prius friendly so I suspect you'll have good luck. You might also contact these folks to find out who they may have trained:
    Bob Wilson
     
  10. Kate Harvest

    Kate Harvest Member

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    Heh, I'm already pretty familiar with the "pick two" maxim from my work as a software engineer, so I hear you loud and clear! All the same, when push comes to shove my MacBook Pro's battery can hold enough charge for an hour or two and it could fit pretty comfortably in the passenger seat. I think it'd probably do fine on the rare occasion I could potentially have use for it. I'm not a mechanic, just a girl who wanted a gas efficient car and was caught completely off guard by how enjoyable to drive it turned out to be! :)

    Followed the "Hybrid Shop Finder" link off of the Auto Career Development Center website... It only lists 3 shops within 25 miles of me, and the second closest listed was already on the list of shops I Emailed. Went ahead and Emailed the closest as well. Thank you! :)
     
  11. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Ha, ". . . just a girl . . ." you are already in the far right edge of the Bell curve.

    Patrick is right that you are probably looking at about $2,000. Once repaired we have some suggestions about how to 'softly' drive your Prius.

    With the money saved, you might want to think about:
    • 2004-2009 Prius (NHW20) - now used, these are excellent rides with a lot of space and improved performance. Prices now are much softer and there are good ones around. We recommend the modules from these crashed units to rebuild an NHW11 traction battery.
    • Prius c - similar compact car, the technology has significantly improved over our NHW11. Early Prius c are available on the used market.
    • Prius hatchback (ZVW30) - the 1.8L Prius has a lot of internal space and more power. A great car for cross country driving. It remains the Prius mileage champ.
    BTW, I'm not selling our 165,000 mile, 2003 Prius. It still does what I want including my experiments. So I fully understand keeping the little puppy running.

    Bob Wilson
     
  12. Kate Harvest

    Kate Harvest Member

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    Okay, an immensely nerdy girl, then! ;)

    I've actually already been looking at Gen 2 Priuses because I've gotten the impression that both the battery and the transmission were improved upon and those seem to be problem areas for the Gen 1... And because personally I actually like the way they look better, even if that isn't a popular opinion. And I've looked at the Prius C both because of the slightly higher mileage and because I think I'd feel a bit safer in a smaller car that'd give me more leeway to get away the next time someone veers into my lane.

    I'm going to go ahead and call the Prius C my "fantasy car"... Just because my current living arrangements wouldn't make it easy to keep a Tesla Model S charged. If I can keep my Gen1 running in the immediate future for something in the neighborhood of $2000, I think I'll be staying with her for now, though. Honestly a year ago I never would have imagined I could ever enjoy a car as much as I've been enjoying this one.

    It's the quiet, and the super smooth ride that got me. She's my magical silent ninja car! :)
     
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  13. Kate Harvest

    Kate Harvest Member

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    I'd love to hear the "soft" driving suggestions, by the way. Though I've already spent a fair bit of time reading hypermiling guides and think for the most part I do drive pretty softly. I keep the MFD on the Consumption screen and constantly watch the real time MPG, I generally stay in the rightmost lane and coast towards red lights from a ridiculous distance... I know to back off of the throttle once I've reached the speed I want to be going and then push down on it again very very gently to maintain the speed with the electric motor. I'll admit I don't always have the presence of mind to do pulse and glide.

    Are there other important techniques that I might not already be aware of?
     
  14. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    A MacBook Pro with BootCamp will do a good job. I am using my MacBook Pro, BootCamp, and Windows XP 32 bit OS to run Mini VCI.

    Also, you can buy Mini VCI from various vendors on Amazon.com and some ship from the US, in my case I recall the seller was in CA.
     
  15. dolj

    dolj Senior Member

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    I think, Kate, you mentioned using VMWare. FYI this also works to run your VM.
     
  16. Kate Harvest

    Kate Harvest Member

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    Hopefully I won't end up having to give Windows its own actual partition! Last time I went through BootCamp I felt sad and uncomfortable in a way that I think is probably analogous to how sad the idea of going back to driving a combustion-only car makes me feel now. I've seen mini VCF cables on both Amazon and eBay. Usually I'm more of an eBay fan for these sorts of things.

    Nice to have that confirmed so quickly! Thank you! :)
     
  17. Kate Harvest

    Kate Harvest Member

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    After discussing the situation with my father and at the advice of several of you as well as several of the mechanics I contacted, it looks like I'm going to be looking into upgrading to a gen 2 Prius rather than repairing this one.

    I did have one mechanic tell me that they were able to locate a used transmission with 150k miles on it and would be able to install it for me for just under $2000, but he warned me that there would be no warranty on the labor and the warranty on the part would be for something like 90 days. So you guys' estimate was pretty dead on!

    Nice to know I'm getting competent advice! :) Thank you all!
     
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  18. Kate Harvest

    Kate Harvest Member

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    I'm now the proud owner of a 2007 Prius with only 57k miles on it and a clean title. It looks like my '02 is going to be purchased by Travis Decker of
    atomicauto , who's apparently a friend and associate of Luscious Garage's Carolyn Coquillette. The guy seems immensely smart and passionate about these cars and was genuinely horrified when he heard I was considering just calling a scrap place to get the car off my hands. He's going to make sure she gets back up and running, and I'm scheduled for a Hangouts conference with Carolyn to discuss possibly doing some work on Luscious Garage's website.

    If any Portland-area Prius owners happen to run into this thread at any point in the future, I highly recommend making Atomic Auto your regular mechanic. I think he's about as competent a Prius mechanic as you could possibly find without heading down to the bay area.

    I knew he was the kind of mechanic I was looking for when I walked into his shop and saw a row of burnt out Gen1 MG2 stators sitting on a shelf in his show room. And I get the impression he was pretty delighted to meet someone who already knew what an MG2 stator looks like and understood essentially what it does.

    Thanks again, everyone! :)
     
    #18 Kate Harvest, Sep 18, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2014
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