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P3190 - Depleted HV Battery - Phantom Fuel?!

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Care, Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by prii til i die, Aug 7, 2023.

  1. prii til i die

    prii til i die New Member

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    Battery Bonanza
    Two months ago, 5 minutes from home, coming back from a 6hr road trip I got P0A80 'Replace Hybrid Battery' code. I checked my Dr. Prius App and saw that some of the cells seemed to be struggling, but it wasn't in horrible shape. However, I bought this Prius used from a guy who had recently replaced the HV battery with a Green Tec Auto 'Remanufactured Battery'. The battery has a 1-year warranty, and I was still in that time period. So I warrantied the battery. Got the new one delivered to my house and while I waited for it to arrive, I parked my Prius in the back yard and borrowed a friends car.

    Eventually the HV battery was delivered, but it took me a few weeks to get around to actually removing the old one and installing the new one. By the time I was ready to do this, my 12v battery had died (I had left my OBDII scanner plugged into the car and it has tiny flashing lights that are on even when the car is off. My guess is that drained the 12v). I jumped it and it started up just fine, drove it around a bit to charge up the 12v battery, then parked and turned it off. But after turning it off, it wouldn't start again, totally dead. It would start off a jump, but the 12v wasn't holding a charge. I tested the 12v with a multimeter, decided it was time to replace it, and bought a new OEM 12v battery from the Toyota dealership.

    While I was waiting to get the new 12v battery, I swapped the old HV battery for the new one. That all went smoothly. I got the new 12v battery and installed it. That is the work I've done so far...

    The Phantom Fuel
    When I jumped the car, turning it on for the first time in probably 1.5 months, the fuel gauge was down to 1 pip and flashing. I dismissed this as an electric mixup because the tank had been half full when I parked it. Plus I have a vague memory of another time when I disconnected the 12v battery and the fuel gauge reset showing 1 flashing bar but it updated after I drove it around for a little while. Could someone have siphoned out my gas while it sat for 1.5 months?! I live in a very rural valley where we do not lock our cars or houses and I often leave the windows of my farm truck entirely rolled down with the keys inside. I didn't even consider the possibility that someone had siphoned my gas.

    So I ignored the flashing single pip, drove the car around for a little bit trying to charge up the 12v that wasn't holding a charge. While driving it around I get a P3193 'Fuel Run Out' code. That worried me, but I thought, there is no possible way I'm out of gas I had a half a tank, this is an electrical mix up to do with my dead 12v battery.

    Fast forward a few days: I've replaced the HV battery and the 12v battery. I start up the car and it drives maybe 30 feet with extremely low power before stopping completely. It throws a P3190 code. I attempt to turn it off and on a few more times to get it out of the road, each time the HV battery turns the ICE for a few seconds, but the car never properly starts.

    I begin to consider the impossible... someone siphoned my gas?!

    I went into town, picked up 2 gallons, put them in the prius, same issues persist.

    My Fail Mary
    I love priuschat, what an incredible forum, I've learned so much. Mostly how totally f*cked I might be :)

    I read the post Car Ran Out of Gas, now code P3190 and won't run, and understand the implications of running a HV battery low through running out of gas. My MFD doesn't work so I can't see the HV battery bars, but I have Dr Prius, and the SOC of my HV battery is at like 12.5% (I know, I'm f*cked).

    I know its possible that my MAF is dirty and I didn't get my fuel siphoned. Cleaning my MAF sensor is my next step. And I will put in another few gallons of gas just to be sure.

    But I figure the MAF sensor and the fuel are somewhat irrelevant until I can figure out a way to recharge my HV battery. Some people on here have mentioned Prolong Battery Chargers, other have mentioned taking it to the Toyota dealership and asking them to recharge it (but I've read mixed success with this, some dealerships refuse to do it or do not have the charger on site).

    My Questions
    1) What should I do? Please help me :)
    2) Should I put the old HV battery back in, hope that it has some charge, and can start the car up enough for me to do fuel and MFA assessment?
    3) Should I spend $450 on a Prolong Battery Charger? Can I use the charger on the depleted battery when it is not installed in the car?
    4) Do HV batteries that are sitting outside of car lose significant amounts of their charge just sitting there? Do companies like Green Tec Auto keep them all plugged constantly? Did the new HV battery get significantly depleted in the weeks that I let it sit before installing?

    Appreciate any thoughts or recommendations!


     
  2. mr_guy_mann

    mr_guy_mann Senior Member

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    Top of the list is that your throttle body bore and MAF sensor have "normal" buildup of deposits that form over time. The ECM compensates for this (up to a point) and stores those corrections in memory.

    Disconnect the 12V and those learned corrections are erased. The ECM is reset to "from the factory" values for throttle and fuel - it can't know that things are gooped up so there's incorrect airflow and fuel calculations.

    Search the forums for how to clean the throttle and MAF.

    Maybe the fuel pump isn't working- it can "die" or the wiring can fail. The fuel pump power goes through the white connector near the battery cooling fan (the one that often corrodes and disables the fan itself).

    It would help to have a capable scantool that can command the pump to activate so you can hear if it works (and test power at the pump). Might need to connect a fuel pressure gauge to check function.

    You can (carefully) measure voltage of the old pack to see how low it is vs the "new" one.

    Prolong is one option. Search the forum for DIY battery charger (?) as there are other options as well.

    Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.
     
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  3. dolj

    dolj Senior Member

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    You could measure the voltage (carefully) too see if the old one is any better. Anything over 208 V or better would work, but if it is at that low end you might only get 1 or 2 tries before you're back to square one. It would be better if it was 225 to 230 V.
    I can't tell you whether to buy that charger or not, but it will definitely charge up the depleted battery. There is a thread here that will show you how you can build a charger for $100 or less.
    They shouldn't do that when they're new but old batteries (and that's what a rebuilt is) can self discharge. Less so with a battery that is closer to a brand new one. I doubt whether rebuilders keep the batteries on life support while they wait to be sold.
     
    #3 dolj, Aug 9, 2023
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2023
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  4. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    Just for insurance add at least 3 gallons of gas?
     
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  5. prii til i die

    prii til i die New Member

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    Thank you all! These are very helpful replies!

    Any advice on SAFELY testing the voltage of the HV battery? Not finding super clear guides online and I don't want to die :)
     
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  6. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    Dr Prius app? Works good with Carista Bluetooth OBD dongle. The simple/easy test looks like this:
     

    Attached Files:

  7. dolj

    dolj Senior Member

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    Presumably we're talking about the old battery that is out of the car (in which case Dr. Prius won't be useful), you should wear linesman's gloves and have a voltmeter rated at 1000V in addition to test leads that are rated at 1000V with probes insulated except for the very tip. Test the voltage at the battery where No. 2 Frame Wire attaches, if you have the cover off, or at the No.3 System Main Relay (with the orange service plug grip installed).

    If you are not sure about anything please ask.
     
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  8. Brandon Luna

    Brandon Luna New Member

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    But it was a rental and I figured that it had been driven pretty hard most if it's life and it was rather pointless to try to change the mpgs in a week.
     
  9. prii til i die

    prii til i die New Member

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    Thank you! This is exactly what I was looking for. My current multimeter is rated to 500V, which would not be safe, is that correct?
     
  10. TMR-JWAP

    TMR-JWAP Senior Member

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    Pretty sure if the car flagged 'out of fuel' you'll need more than 2 gallons to actually get it to register...become a big spender and save yourself some headache. Just add 3 more gallons.
     
  11. dolj

    dolj Senior Member

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    As far as the meter is concerned you should be good with that but make sure your leads are insulated to the tip. The insulation is usually a removable cap, make sure they are installed.
     
  12. douglasjre

    douglasjre Senior Member

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    Do diagnostics. The fact that you don't know what those are, much less why, theory thereof, or mastery in, means you're not qualified. Hand it over to the dealer
     
  13. Galiprius

    Galiprius New Member

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    Does the p3190 error occur with the new battery?

    Install the old battery and try to jump start the car.

    The same thing just happened to me in my prius and I suspect it is due to low battery discharge.

    Currently I have the cells charging in my garage one by one with Imax b6, in a few days I will try to start it.
     
  14. Galiprius

    Galiprius New Member

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    Problem solved, voltage drop in the fuel pump, I have replaced the wire up to the front connection and everything works again.
     
  15. prii til i die

    prii til i die New Member

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    Update from a couple month later!

    I finally got around to buying a Prolong HV battery charger so that I could recharge the depleted traction battery. I also cleaned the MAF sensor and throttle body (throttle body was very dirty). And I put in an additional 3 gallons of gas

    Unfortunately, the problem persists. I turn on the car (it now says it has a full tank of gas) its sounds like the ICE is running for about 15 seconds and then it stops. Shows me the red triangle of doom and throws fault code P3191. Clearly the HV battery is turning the ICE trying to get it started but then gives up.

    What could it be? If its a problem with the fuel pump, what is the best way to test the different components of that system?

    As always, any help is greatly appreciated!
     
  16. mr_guy_mann

    mr_guy_mann Senior Member

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    The same suggestions as in post #2 above. A scantool with bidirectional controls such as Techstream (ThinkDiag or Anyscan from the scantool review thread at the top of the Technical Discussion forum), and if needed a fuel pressure guage.

    Here's the electrical connector on the fuel tank (under the back seat). The white wire should always be ground. The black wire receives power when the ECM turns on the "circuit opening relay". That happens when the ICE is starting-running, or when you use a bidirectional scantool to command it.

    Also, the ICE needs ignition spark (at the correct time), fuel injectors spraying (correct amount), good engine compression, and no intake or exhaust restrictions.

    Lots of things need to be "just right" to have the ICE run. It can take a lot of specialized knowledge and tooling to figure out what's wrong when it won't start. DSC_6280_1_1_1.JPG

    Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.
     
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  17. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    That's normal. When the electric power has been gone long enough, the fuel gauge forgets the reading. When next powered up, it blinks one pip to tell you it hasn't figured out the fuel level yet. As soon as it does, it stops the blinking and shows the right level.

    The ECM has kind of a simpleminded rule for setting P3193; just whenever it was going to say P3190 or P3191 anyway, but also had a low reading from the fuel gauge at the same time. Then it sets P3193 instead, thinking "maybe low fuel explains the engine not starting".

    And that also happens if the fuel gauge is still in the blinking-pip stage figuring out the fuel level. The ECM doesn't know the difference between that and a true low fuel reading, so it will set P3193 if there happens to be a problem starting the engine during that time.
     
  18. prii til i die

    prii til i die New Member

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    #UPDATE#

    I decided troubleshooting the problem was above my head and I took it to a local mechanic last week. They have gone through two diagnostic levels so far and just got back to me today saying that the car turns on when the fuel pump is powered at the pump, but the electric signal is getting lost somewhere between the fuse box and the fuel pump, which is why the push start isn't turning on the car. Their guess is that rodents have damaged the wiring that runs to the fuel pump and I'm about to pay ~$600 in labour for them to disassemble a bunch of the interior to trace the wiring and hopefully replace the damaged section.

    I think this diagnosis makes sense given the entire situation, the Prius sat outside in a rural area not being driven for more than a month and its very possible that rodents got in.

    I'm wondering if anyone has experience replacing the wiring that runs between the fuse box and the fuel pump? and how difficult it is? how many specialized tools you need? If $600 in labour seems way too high or pretty reasonable?

    Also any advice on avoiding an issue like this is the future? I have already 'mouse proofed' my Prius by covering the AC vents with wire mesh, and taping dryer sheets all around the engine compartment. I didn't wire mesh over the rear vent, which is possible where they got in. Any other tips or tricks for keeping Prii safe from rodents?

    As always, thank you all for your invaluable explanations and help
     
  19. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    idk, but if it's part of the main wiring harness, that's like a $7,000. replacement at a dealer.
    i hope the mech looks at the schematic before throwing your money at it.
     
  20. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    I hope the mechanic has already looked at the wiring diagram to identify the other items on that wiring path (at least one relay, for example, perhaps two) and check those, before tearing the carpet out.