Peace march 1/27/07 Washington DC

chogan · Jan 28, 2007

My family and I attended the 1/27/07 peace march in Washington DC yesterday. The news coverage seemed to be fixated on the celebrities who attended. I thought I'd say what the TV news did not.

First, I saw lots of church groups. Starting with Society of Friends (Quakers), Methodist and Episcopal congregations, a few Catholic parishes. There was a large contingent of Church of the Bretheren, which surprised me until I googled it and found that they, like the Quakers, are a peace church and hold that "all war is sin." My own church group, the Unitarian Universalists, had about eight congregations in attendance. So, there was a heavy presence by mainstream churches that the media did not deem newsworthy.

Second, the crowd was overwhelmingly middle-aged, middle-class, middle-of-the-road people. TV is attracted to the nuts and the loudmouths, but those were in fact few and far between. What I saw was largely a bunch of middle-class voters who were angry to various degrees about the Iraq war. And a few flakes and a few professional agitators,but mostly just John and Jane Doe.

Third, at the midpoint of the march I stopped and did my own back-of-the-envelope crowd estimate, and came up with at least 50,000, but no more than 100,000, based on the width of the road, my eyeballing of how tightly the crowd was packed, and the length of the march route at that point. That was after about 1.5 hours of marching. At that point, and the last of the crowd still had not entered the march route. No one in the media seemed to be willing to say more than "tens of thousands".

Fourth, the crowd was extremely civil. The Capitol Police were a bit tense, but you could see by the way the DC police behaved that this was an easy event for them. All the motorcycle cops were hanging out in front of the US Botanical Gardens, basically just having a nice afternoon. The cops on horseback were in front of the Native American Museum, same deal. I think that's a consequence of having a bunch of middle-aged people at a protest rally. The TV news mentioned an incident at the entrance to the Capitol itself, but I have no idea what that was about. There was nothing happening by the time I got near the Capitol

Fifth, I have to mention that the Vienna Metro parking lot was full of Prii. I counted 4 in addition to ours, in the row in which we we parked. Judging from the bumper stickers, it was pretty clear they were there to attend the rally. The ground lots at Vienna Metro were about 2/3rds full when we got there, which is a lot for a Saturday.

The organizers of the event asked that on Monday (tomorrow), people contact their Senators and Representative and make their opinions known. Google any variation on "members of congress email address" and you will see numerous sites from which you can look up contact information for your representative and senators. Whether you think the war in Iraq has been a costly and unnecessary folly (as I do), or believe that the President has made and continues to make the correct decisions regarding the Middle East, tomorrow might be a good day to take a few minutes and let your opinion be known. Members of Congress pay attention to mail from their constituents. Your opinion will count if you will take the time to let it be known.

daniel · Jan 28, 2007

Thanks for that report.

dragonfly · Jan 28, 2007

Honestly, I was shocked and happy the march got any coverage at all. Great summary - thanks. I called Senator Feinstein a week or so back but will do so again tomorrow. (Not that she needs any convincing!) Great that you participated in this!!!!

lbligh · Jan 29, 2007

The Friends Committee on National Legislation, the lobbying arm of the Quakers, has a very nice congressional look-up service on their web site. In addition to the basic contact information such as office address and e-mail address or link to a web form, it gives biographical facts and lists committee memberships, PAC contributions to their campaigns, and any co-sponsorships of bills relating to issues the Quakers consider important.

The URL is: http://www.fcnl.org/index.htm -- then click on "Find your member of Congress."

Now that I have discovered this site I am sure I will revisit it often. I am not a Quaker but I share many of their values.

dbermanmd · Jan 29, 2007

I love the fact that a protest like that occured - honestly.

I thought they would get more people than they did - but so be it. I think they had more people protesting the anniversary of r v. wade.

I was disappointed at all the retreads from the Vietnam War. I wanted to someone to tell Jane Fonda that there was a US helicopter that was shot down yesterday in Najif - if she wants to go there to stand on its reckage I am sure Obama can arrange for that to happen and she can protest the war from there like old times. Interesting in that there were a lot of middle aged people there - also retreads from the 60's?

Alric · Jan 29, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Jan 29 2007, 12:08 PM) [snapback]382275[/snapback]</div>

I wanted to someone to tell Jane Fonda that there was a US helicopter that was shot down yesterday in Najif - if she wants to go there to stand on its reckage I am sure Obama can arrange for that to happen and she can protest the war from there like old times.
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You realize Bush put that helicopter in Iraq, not Osama.

dbermanmd · Jan 29, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Alric @ Jan 29 2007, 11:23 AM) [snapback]382281[/snapback]</div>

You realize Bush put that helicopter in Iraq, not Osama.
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True - like kennedy and lbj put them in Vietnam - where thousands were shot down and thousands of Americans were KIA - that did not stop good old Hanoi Jane from standing on top of the wreckage of a shot down US plane and protesting the war from Vietnam. I was just thinking she would feel more at home standing atop of the wreckage of a US helicopter (since we have yet to have a plane shot down probably much to her chagrin) - while protesting the war - especially from enemy territory.

I am assuming you think it deserved to get shot down too?

Mystery Squid · Jan 29, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Alric @ Jan 29 2007, 01:23 PM) [snapback]382281[/snapback]</div>

You realize Bush put that helicopter in Iraq, not Osama.
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right...

the insurgents and terrorists around the world would like to take a moment to thank you, and those who think like you, for your support. May the American infidels be sent back to the great Satan with their tales between their legs... Continue on with your withdrawal strategies, we really appreciate it...

lbligh · Jan 29, 2007

The news reports focused on Jane Fonda and the "retreads," but the reality of the rally was very different. Most of the people I saw were with church groups, and the overwhelming impression was "Middle Class Voter." It is regrettable that newspapers and television coverage give a deceptive view.

If Jane Fonda spoke, I couldn't hear a word. It was Jesse Jackson and his rhetorical skill who truly ignited the crowd.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Jan 29 2007, 11:08 AM) [snapback]382275[/snapback]</div>

I love the fact that a protest like that occured - honestly.

I thought they would get more people than they did - but so be it. I think they had more people protesting the anniversary of r v. wade.

I was disappointed at all the retreads from the Vietnam War. I wanted to someone to tell Jane Fonda that there was a US helicopter that was shot down yesterday in Najif - if she wants to go there to stand on its reckage I am sure Obama can arrange for that to happen and she can protest the war from there like old times. Interesting in that there were a lot of middle aged people there - also retreads from the 60's?
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hycamguy07 · Jan 29, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lbligh @ Jan 29 2007, 11:53 AM) [snapback]382298[/snapback]</div>

The news reports focused on Jane Fonda and the "retreads," but the reality of the rally was very different. Most of the people I saw were with church groups, and the overwhelming impression was "Middle Class Voter." It is regrettable that newspapers and television coverage give a deceptive view.

If Jane Fonda spoke, I couldn't hear a word. It was Jesse Jackson and his rhetorical skill who truly ignited the crowd.
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Oh boy hes a real winner 'Jesse Jackson' Black man with attitude, in reality hes just a extremist that hides under the partys rock until he is needed to incite rage and fear towards others... What was it he did in 02 or 04 when he told the black community that GB was going to take away their rights and their heathcare if they voted for him.. :lol: waht a nut case...

Jesse & Jane need to be sent to the front line in Iraq and do a peace march for the terrorists.

I guess I'll vote for Jesse in 08 , Man can you imagine Jesse Jackson as president?

But Im glad to hear they where peacefull..

dbermanmd · Jan 29, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lbligh @ Jan 29 2007, 11:53 AM) [snapback]382298[/snapback]</div>

The news reports focused on Jane Fonda and the "retreads," but the reality of the rally was very different. Most of the people I saw were with church groups, and the overwhelming impression was "Middle Class Voter." It is regrettable that newspapers and television coverage give a deceptive view.

If Jane Fonda spoke, I couldn't hear a word. It was Jesse Jackson and his rhetorical skill who truly ignited the crowd.
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I am glad to hear it was all vietnam retreads protesting again. jane and jessie still too - jeez no new blood for the anti-America crowd.

MarinJohn · Jan 29, 2007

A word about the DC media: One can only hope it's changed from the '60's since at that time it was obviously in the pocket of the pro war crowd. There were many demonstrations which I attended in which so many people came to town that it was all but shut down by gridlock. Never reported. There were many demonstrations I personally attended where the mall was wall to wall people from the capitol to the Lincoln memorial as far as the eye could see. They'd usually estimate the crowd as something like 10,000, about 750,000 less than reality.

I was there to protest Nixon's 2nd inauguration and can tell the following story from a personal point of view. The town was once again all but shut down by gridlock caused by over a million protesters. Nixon stood on the capitol steps and was inaugurated with about 250 supporters just in front of him. directly behind them, and shooting over their heads were the news cameras, panning the supporter's happy little faces. Behind the cameras were 10s of thousands of protesters making such a racket that on the news they had to use a direct feed of Nixon to overcome the crowd noise. On the evening news that night all you saw was the small crowd of supporters cheering, Nixon beyond, and absolutely no mention of the huge crowd of protesters in the background. It was such a farce that it made me realize once and for all time how those in power can marginalize the majority populace.

dbermanmd · Jan 29, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MarinJohn @ Jan 29 2007, 12:45 PM) [snapback]382330[/snapback]</div>

It was such a farce that it made me realize once and for all time how those in power can marginalize the majority populace.
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curious how you define "majority populace" - those that march or those that vote? Or do you believe each and every poll released to define "the majority populace"?

Like vietnam- if the dems and the media get america to retreat the killing fields will be vast. this time however they will stretch around the world and probably eventually include wmd's. that blood will be on their hands this time - and i hope direct blame placed squarely on the dems heads. i wish they would go for it instead of yapping up a storm - just hold back funding - please - its time to call their bluff.

Wildkow · Jan 29, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(chogan @ Jan 28 2007, 06:01 AM) [snapback]381905[/snapback]</div>

My family and I attended the 1/27/07 peace march in Washington DC yesterday. The news coverage seemed to be fixated on the celebrities who attended. I thought I'd say what the TV news did not.

First, I saw lots of church groups. Starting with Society of Friends (Quakers), Methodist and Episcopal congregations, a few Catholic parishes. There was a large contingent of Church of the Bretheren, which surprised me until I googled it and found that they, like the Quakers, are a peace church and hold that "all war is sin." My own church group, the Unitarian Universalists, had about eight congregations in attendance. So, there was a heavy presence by mainstream churches that the media did not deem newsworthy.

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How dare those Christians force their views on us! :angry:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ Jan 29 2007, 08:51 AM) [snapback]382296[/snapback]</div>

right...

the insurgents and terrorists around the world would like to take a moment to thank you, and those who think like you, for your support. May the American infidels be sent back to the great Satan with their tales between their legs... Continue on with your withdrawal strategies, we really appreciate it...
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Well as you can see the Dem's will not stop pressing the issue but won't do anything about it with the power they now possess because what would they have to complain about or what issue would they harp upon for the upcoming electon? Mark my words up till the next election the Dem's will be quite vocal about Iraq but accomplish nothing, accept further the incidence of Global Warming with all the hot air they intend to release. <_<

Wildkow

chogan · Jan 29, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ Jan 29 2007, 11:51 AM) [snapback]382296[/snapback]</div>

right...

the insurgents and terrorists around the world would like to take a moment to thank you, and those who think like you, for your support. May the American infidels be sent back to the great Satan with their tales between their legs... Continue on with your withdrawal strategies, we really appreciate it...
[/b]
Click to expand...

I assume that you, like all well-informed Americans, are aware that our soldiers in Iraq overwhelmingly support withdrawal. Even the majority of Marines want withdrawal. So you are completely aware that when you disparage talk of withdrawal, you are disparaging the opinion of our troops in Iraq.

This is based based on a 2006 poll by Zogby International, sanctioned by the US military, of US troops in Iraq. If you wish to be informed, you may read a summary of the results here:
http://www.zogby.com/NEWS/ReadNews.dbm?ID=1075

There are links to the actual poll method and questions on the Zogby website, so that you can see this was a legitimate, scientific polling effort with unslanted questions.

For your convenience, the key quote would be:
"An overwhelming majority of 72% of American troops serving in Iraq think the U.S. should exit the country within the next year... " This was in January/February 2006.

Now that you are fully informed, and understand that most of our soldiers in Iraq want withdrawal, do you wish to alter your comment, or do you prefer to stand by it and thereby imply that our soldiers actually fighting this war somehow wish to aid terrorism?

Even the majority of Marines in Iraq want withdrawal. When the Marines say it's time to go, that's a pretty clear indicator to me that our (non)policy of staying the course is not very smart.

Personally, I don't know any terrorists, and would not presume to know how they think, as you seem to. I would not claim that much insight into the terrorist mindset. I do, however, know that our own national security experts have said our invasion and occupation of Iraq substantially fueled radicalism and terrorism in the Middle East. In other words, the invasion and occupation have increased terrorism. You can read a summary in the NY Times here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/24/world/mi...nyt&emc=rss

So, our experts say that invading Iraq increased terrorism, and staying in Iraq increased terrorism. Now, I'm supposed to believe some random opinion that leaving would also increase terrorism? That seems implausible to me. But I could believe either of two scenarios about leaving Iraq. Most likely, I'd guess getting out of Iraq would reduce terrorism. Otherwise, I'd say that getting out of Iraq would fuel terrorism no worse than staying there does. Either way, from the standpoint of some hypothetical impact on terrorism, withdrawal is no worse than, and almost certainly better than, continued occupation.

livelychick · Jan 29, 2007

Thanks, chogan, for your report. Sorry this thread has (for the umpteenth time) been turned into something defensive and ugly. I thought about going up for the event, but thought it might be a little chilly for the 3-year old.

So, when you get a chance, can you tell me a little more about the UU? I've been wanting to go to a service here, but I'm apparently afraid that it's going to be like cheerleader try-outs or something. (I don't have a shy bone in my body, but I'm terribly nervous about going to church on my own...)

Mystery Squid · Jan 29, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(chogan @ Jan 29 2007, 03:30 PM) [snapback]382356[/snapback]</div>

I assume that you, like all well-informed Americans, are aware that our soldiers in Iraq overwhelmingly support withdrawal. Even the majority of Marines want withdrawal. So you are completely aware that when you disparage talk of withdrawal, you are disparaging the opinion of our troops in Iraq.

This is based based on a 2006 poll by Zogby International, sanctioned by the US military, of US troops in Iraq. If you wish to be informed, you may read a summary of the results here:
http://www.zogby.com/NEWS/ReadNews.dbm?ID=1075

There are links to the actual poll method and questions on the Zogby website, so that you can see this was a legitimate, scientific polling effort with unslanted questions.

For your convenience, the key quote would be:
"An overwhelming majority of 72% of American troops serving in Iraq think the U.S. should exit the country within the next year... " This was in January/February 2006.

Now that you are fully informed, and understand that most of our soldiers in Iraq want withdrawal, do you wish to alter your comment, or do you prefer to stand by it and thereby imply that our soldiers actually fighting this war somehow wish to aid terrorism?

Even the majority of Marines in Iraq want withdrawal. When the Marines say it's time to go, that's a pretty clear indicator to me that our (non)policy of staying the course is not very smart.

Personally, I don't know any terrorists, and would not presume to know how they think, as you seem to. I would not claim that much insight into the terrorist mindset. I do, however, know that our own national security experts have said our invasion and occupation of Iraq substantially fueled radicalism and terrorism in the Middle East. In other words, the invasion and occupation have increased terrorism. You can read a summary in the NY Times here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/24/world/mi...nyt&emc=rss

So, our experts say that invading Iraq increased terrorism, and staying in Iraq increased terrorism. Now, I'm supposed to believe some random opinion that leaving would also increase terrorism? That seems implausible to me. But I could believe either of two scenarios about leaving Iraq. Most likely, I'd guess getting out of Iraq would reduce terrorism. Otherwise, I'd say that getting out of Iraq would fuel terrorism no worse than staying there does. Either way, from the standpoint of some hypothetical impact on terrorism, withdrawal is no worse than, and almost certainly better than, continued occupation.
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All I have to say is this:

The survey included 944 military respondents interviewed at several undisclosed locations throughout Iraq. The names of the specific locations and specific personnel who conducted the survey are being withheld for security purposes. Surveys were conducted face-to-face using random sampling techniques. The margin of error for the survey, conducted Jan. 18 through Feb. 14, 2006, is +/- 3.3 percentage points[/b]
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Now, what the article DOESN'T tell you:

Approximate Number of US troops in Iraq: 138,000

Percentage polled: .6%

Let's see... .6% polled leads to a margin of error at +/- 3.3???

Yeah, ok....

chogan · Jan 29, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Jan 29 2007, 11:08 AM) [snapback]382275[/snapback]</div>

I love the fact that a protest like that occured - honestly.

I thought they would get more people than they did - but so be it. I think they had more people protesting the anniversary of r v. wade.

I was disappointed at all the retreads from the Vietnam War. I wanted to someone to tell Jane Fonda that there was a US helicopter that was shot down yesterday in Najif - if she wants to go there to stand on its reckage I am sure Obama can arrange for that to happen and she can protest the war from there like old times. Interesting in that there were a lot of middle aged people there - also retreads from the 60's?
[/b]
Click to expand...

Thank you, dbermand, I can always count on you to be, in the words of Perry Mason, irrelevant, incompetent, and immaterial. In a single comment, you managed to a) bring in an entirely different controversial issue that is completely off-point, B) fake like you actually knew something about the crowd sizes, which would not be possible unless you attended both events, because the Park Service no longer releases crowd size estimates, and c) fixate on the celebrities by fantasizing an emotionally charged episode based on a recent actual event (a mini-docu-drama), ignoring my comment that the celebs were irrelevant to the rally. That was a tour-de-force, even by your high standards.

livelychick · Jan 29, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(chogan @ Jan 29 2007, 01:49 PM) [snapback]382364[/snapback]</div>

Thank you, dbermand, I can always count on you to be, in the words of Perry Mason, irrelevant, incompetent, and immaterial. In a single comment, you managed to a) bring in an entirely different controversial issue that is completely off-point, B) fake like you actually knew something about the crowd sizes, which would not be possible unless you attended both events, because the Park Service no longer releases crowd size estimates, and c) fixate on the celebrities by fantasizing an emotionally charged episode based on a recent actual event (a mini-docu-drama), ignoring my comment that the celebs were irrelevant to the rally. That was a tour-de-force, even by your high standards.
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Well said, chogan, well said.

MegansPrius · Jan 29, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ Jan 29 2007, 02:43 PM) [snapback]382362[/snapback]</div>

All I have to say is this:
Now, what the article DOESN'T tell you:

Approximate Number of US troops in Iraq: 138,000

Percentage polled: .6%

Let's see... .6% polled leads to a margin of error at +/- 3.3???

Yeah, ok....
[/b]
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Well, that's how polls are done. The percentage polled doesn't matter (i.e., the population size); it's the sample size that does (yes, in this instance, size does matter). From wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margin_of_error

An interesting mathematical fact is that the margin of error depends only on the sample size and not on the population size, provided that the population is significantly larger than the sample size, and provided a simple random sample is used. Thus for instance, the poll in the running example with 1,013 randomly sampled registered voters would yield essentially the same margin of error (4% with a 99% level of confidence) regardless of whether the population of registered voters consisted of 100,000 people or 100,000,000 people.

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