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PIP Owners in Southern California Edison Areas

Discussion in 'Gen 1 Prius Plug-in 2012-2015' started by rxlawdude, Mar 30, 2014.

  1. rxlawdude

    rxlawdude Active Member

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    I've been thinking about the current options that SCE has for those of us with EVs or PiHEVs.

    There's the usual "Rate Sheet D" tiered structure, that penalizes usage above 200% of baseline with rates that equate or exceed the costs of the equivalent amount of gasoline.

    There's the "Home and EV" rate that charges upwards of $.50/kWh for daytime use, regardless of only charging at night. (Think home A/C, refrigeration, etc. that need to run on hot days at $.47/kWh.) Even with conservative temperature management, all LED lighting in a home, a high-SEER HVAC system and copious insulation, keeping within 200% of the baseline allowance will be a challenge, and of course, forget about topping off the Prius during the day with energy costing the equivalent of $6/gal gasoline.

    Finally, there's the "EV Separate Meter" rate, which requires significant upfront costs. That plan certainly makes sense for those who own their homes, have relatively short runs from their service panel to the grid connection point, and have an electrician on retainer. :)

    Interestingly, the "peak" rates for this plan are no higher than Sheet D Tier 4 rates.

    Now, here's where I think there's an opportunity:

    SCE could address the rate disparity for those where the separate meter is impractical by (a) simply adjusting the baseline consumption to take into account some significant percentage of EV charging consumption over a typical month, or (b) using technology to isolate and separately measure consumption from an EVSE that's behind a single household meter.

    For years, SCE and others have had devices that connect to A/C compressors that allow the utility to shut off A/C during high demand times. This means that even past a meter, the utility has a way to "talk" (and listen) to control devices. So why not, rather than require a separate meter, use a secondary device between the service entrance meter and the EVSE to calculate and report that usage, subtract that from the meter reading, and charge some compromise rate that doesn't penalize EV owners with a single meter?

    Thoughts? Is this worth pitching to the PUC and SCE?
     
  2. aomC

    aomC Member

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    Just to confirm, this becomes a problem if you want to charge during the day? But if you're doing it at night, you should be OK?
     
  3. rxlawdude

    rxlawdude Active Member

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    If you have the standard residential plan (Schedule D I believe they call it), time of day isn't relevant. There are four tiers, with the highest $.31/kWh. Like tax rates, this is a "marginal" rate when one exceeds 200% of the baseline allowance (which is pretty meager). That top tier rate equates to roughly $4/gal gasoline; when/if gasoline prices drop below that, running the Prius on electricity could exceed the price of dino juice. Note that this assumes your home without your PiP consumes more than baseline and that PiP brings it up over the top tier. The actual "blended" rate will be less.

    The least viable plan (feel free to chime in if this one works for you) is the Home and EV rate, which is cheap at night (<$.10/kWh) but kills at up to $.47/kWh during the day. I assume that they lump all usage to determine the tier at the time electricity is used (so even if you use a bunch of cheap nightime power, its consumption will put you into the top tier for all time periods). But if you have no A/C and very efficient refrigeration equipment, and you charge at night, this plan could work well. If you live in an area that gets hot during the summer and run A/C accordingly, this plan will kill. :ROFLMAO:

    And of course the separate meter EV plan is the best compromise, but its costs for equipment and wiring make this a nonstarter for most, especially for us with PiP's. (But if you plan a full EV down the road, it might make sense to install now.)

    What I suggested in the top post is for SCE to use the technology it has already to essentially "sub-meter" EVSE consumption, subtract this from total consumption and bill the household use as Schedule D and the consumption for charging the EV at the "EV plan" rate. Minimal costs for the customer, a technically feasible approach for SCE, and everyone wins.

    Which is why it probably won't fly with SCE.
     
  4. Jeff N

    Jeff N The answer is 0042

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    Brilliant idea! It's called "sub metering" and there have been regulatory discussions about it.

    Here's info from a CPUC workshop in 2011. I haven't been following it closely so it's likely there may be newer docs:


    Electric Vehicle Submetering Workshop: Presentations
     
  5. firedoug

    firedoug Junior Member

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    Have you given home solar any consideration? This might be an option to solve your dilemma.

    Get a few bids and see if this is an option would work for you.
     
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  6. aomC

    aomC Member

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    Will have to measure the impact then on my next bill. Right now, I pay about 175/mo, up to 220 depending on season (I have ACs typically running in multiple rooms). So I suppose on my next cycle, it'd be interesting to see what the difference is. Might just opt to not charge it and use the gas part only if the numbers don't work out. Didn't get my PiP so much for the plug in convenience, but more for the HOV anyway.
     
  7. CaliforniaBear

    CaliforniaBear Clearwater Blue Metallic

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    Good suggestion. I live in PG&E territory with similar complex rate structures. I installed solar at the same time I purchased my PiP. In the first year I saved about $1000 on electricity compared to the previous year at the same time I used 1200 kWh over and above my usual electricity usage. My cost per kWh was never over the baseline amount. Of course a year with more normal weather won't do as well but I would expect to stay within the 1st tier which is only slightly more expensive than baseline.
     
  8. mmmodem

    mmmodem Senior Taste Tester

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    Nice idea but now you have to buy a $50 box.

    You might want to switch to the EV rates and see what happens. I was paying about $1 a day extra for the PiP, which is $5 a gallon equivalent. I had two options: stop plugging in because gasoline is cheaper or switch to the EV rate plan which charges $0.50/kWh at peak time. Solar PV isn't viable when your monthly electricity costs is under $100.

    I was pleasantly surprised that my electricity costs fell by about $10 a month. Not a lot but enough to make charging the PiP economical at $0.67 a charge or $3.35/equivalent gallon. All I had to adjust was washing and drying clothes on weekends and washing dishes after 9PM.


    iPhone ?
     
  9. CaliforniaBear

    CaliforniaBear Clearwater Blue Metallic

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    Was this in response to my posting? If so, what $50 box?

    Last year I was on E-9a, similar to EV.
    Actual
    E9a $132.40

    Calculated
    E6 $124.62
    EV $156.64
    E1 $243.17
    E1 without solar $1211

    My total the previous year without the PiP or solar was around $1200. I will be on E6 this year.
     
  10. rxlawdude

    rxlawdude Active Member

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    Thanks, Jeff. I'm going to (in my very limited spare time) start some inquiries to both PUC and SCE.
     
  11. rxlawdude

    rxlawdude Active Member

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    Thanks, Doug. Solar isn't an option in the home I own now, and as my average electric bill runs way less than $100/mo, no solar company is interested in a subsidized model, as installation, financing and maintenance over 20 years would exceed what I pay today.

    However, in a new home with a new soon-to-be spouse, I expect solar to be a very viable option as koi ponds and lofted ceilings tend to increase energy consumption beyond the (comparably) Thermos-like, LED-lit, high-SEER HVAC equipped energy saving box I have today.
     
  12. rogerv

    rogerv Senior Member

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    I'm in SCE territory, and I had an electrician out when I got the PiP two years ago to see what made sense. He quoted about $2500, IIRC, to prepare the house for a second meter, which SCE would install free. The prep involved installing a larger electrical panel and repairing the stucco, etc. All our electricity is billed at the first tier rate only due to medical equipment used on the premises. My annual costs are less than $900, so solar wouldn't pencil out for me either, as much as I like the idea of using the sun for power.:(
     
  13. mmmodem

    mmmodem Senior Taste Tester

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    Sorry, I should have been more clear. It was in response to OP about a device similar to the Smart AC device. I'm guessing it's it would be a $50 box.
     
  14. rxlawdude

    rxlawdude Active Member

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    Making progress with SCE!!! Here's their response to the suggestions about making their rates more rational for plug-in hybrid vehicle owners:

    • SCE has submitted a new EV rate proposal to the California Public Utilities Commission (CPUC) to address your concerns regarding our single meter, time-of use rate, TOU-D-TEV.
      • SCE has proposed making significant changes to this rate schedule to provide a more cost effective solution for our EV customers.
      • This new rate is currently in CPUC review and could be available before the end of the year pending CPUC final approval.
      • SCE will advise our customers when this new rate becomes available.
    • SCE is evaluating a submeter solution like you described in your email.
      • We have been directed by the CPUC to conduct two EV submetering pilots .
      • The first pilot is tentatively scheduled to start in August 2014 pending CPUC final approval.
      • Customers would be able to participate for 12 months.
      • The house would continue to be billed on the current residential rate while EV charging would be billed at our time-of-use, TOU-EV-1 rate that you discussed in your email.
      • At the end of a customer's 12 month participation in the pilot, the EV-1 rate would be removed and both the house and EV charging would revert back to being billed under the current residential rate.
     
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  15. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Good luck with getting the PUC to listen (w/out simply placating). Consider how the utility is now trying to have grid tied PV pay a monthly fee for the privilage of helping the grid be more stable:
    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/27/opinion/sunday/the-koch-attack-on-solar-energy.html?hp&rref=opinion&_r=0

    Solar panels could destroy U.S. utilities, according to U.S. utilities | Grist

    Bottom line for non-standard user's handouts/benefits ... it cuts into SCE profits. Make it more difficult to put solar/wind into the grid, means prices need to go up so SCE can pay more for power, and thus charge you, the end user more. Make it more affordable for plugin's to use the grid cheeply, the less SCE makes. The goal of the utility is to make loads of money, while putting back as little into the infrastructure as possible. That's why our grid is in such sorry shape. I'd find a better way to spend your time than beating the stone wall that is the utility company (imo). Nevertheless, good luck.
    .
     
  16. rxlawdude

    rxlawdude Active Member

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    I've been reminded by my SCE contact that the information I posted about their moves to improve EV charging rates is subject to CPUC approval, which may or may not occur.

    Disclaimer now noted and posted. (y)
     
  17. rxlawdude

    rxlawdude Active Member

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    Okay, some further news. CPUC will not let the utilities do submetering. Instead, new entities called Submeter Meter Data Management Agents (Submeter MDMAs) will be responsible for installing, maintaining, and reading consumption from customers' EVSEs.

    This seems rather odd, adding another party to what should be a simple arrangement. I wonder who lobbied to get their foot in the door of the EV charging market? I wonder how much these MDMAs will charge. (Humorous note: MDMA is also known as "Ecstasy"; guess CPUC didn't consider that in going with the term.)

    For details, see
    http://docs.cpuc.ca.gov/PublishedDocs/Published/G000/M081/K786/81786001.PDF
     
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  18. PriusC_Commuter

    PriusC_Commuter Active Member

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    For those of you on TOU rates or considering TOU rates, do you only charge once per day? I could see that being the case with a Leaf or even Volt, but with the PiP's tiny battery I assumed people would be charging in between trips (at least on weekends) in order to maximize EV use, and without solar that would defeat the purpose of TOU I thought.
     
  19. mmmodem

    mmmodem Senior Taste Tester

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    TOU rates are mostly off peak or partial peak all weekend long. In other words, it's only expensive during week days.
     
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  20. rxlawdude

    rxlawdude Active Member

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    Just using SCE's calculator (and pulling all my usage by hour into an Access database), the TOU plan that lumps EV with household consumption would be completely killer for my PiP. I do tend to charge between trips, which means that sometimes I charge during peak hours, and sometimes I charge twice in a day (once during peak and then what would be off peak). Again, the pure EV rate plan with a separate meter would obviate being punished for household usage for A/C during the summer. But it comes with the up-front substantial costs of a new service entrance and tie into the grid.
     
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