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PIS 10kw conversion or new PIP?

Discussion in 'Gen 1 Prius Plug-in 2012-2015' started by Coyotefred, May 2, 2012.

  1. Coyotefred

    Coyotefred Member

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    [FONT=&quot]Hello,[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]I’m planning on jumping into PHEV and I’m torn between two options: buying an available PIP, or buying a used, low-mileage 2008 Gen2 and getting the Plug-In-Systems conversion for $12,000 (Boulder Hybrid Conversions). Since I’m not in a rebate state like Colorado, my effective price (taking into account the $2500 fed credit for the PIP) for both is nearly the same: around $33,000.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]In favor of the PIP, I get a new car presumably with some improvements/refinements compared to the Gen2, integrated (rather than “add-onâ€) PHEV technology and full warranty coverage. With the converted 2008 I get a 10kWh battery back that the installer states translates into EV-only trips up to 30 miles, a “forced†EV switch and a 2-yr parts/labor warranty except the cells (1 year only).[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]My driving is about 50% in-town (smaller rural city, usually less than 10-12 miles/day), and about 50% out of town for longer distances (50-75 miles/day on rural highways where I tend to drive slower (50-55mph) because I enjoy the scenery and I’ve always tried to conserve fuel).[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]On the one hand I’m attracted to being able to get more miles from EV with the conversion—particularly for my longer rural driving. On the other hand, it seems that in terms of the “whole package†(reliability, warranty coverage, etc.) it might be safer to go with the new PIP, particularly since I’d be able to run gas-free for my in-town driving.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Can some of you more knowledgeable and experienced Prius owners weigh in with some things I should keep in mind on this decision or share your opinion on what you’d recommend?[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Thanks in advance for your time and help.[/FONT]
     
  2. Coyotefred

    Coyotefred Member

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    I should have mentioned that it's unclear how much true "pure EV" range you get with the 10kw conversion. The Boulder Conversions website says up to 30 miles. On a 2011 YouTube video they say up to 40 miles. On the Plug in Supply website they say "50 to 100" miles. Obviously this will vary a lot based on driving conditions and driving technique, but I assume there's some agreement out there on a "typical" range to be expected...

     
  3. Neilb9

    Neilb9 Million Mile Driver

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    Buy New!
     
  4. cproaudio

    cproaudio Speedlock Overrider

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    save your money and wait for the Gen IV PIP. If Toyota listen to its owners, we'll have 30mi AER by then.
     
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  5. Flaninacupboard

    Flaninacupboard Senior Member

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    PiP owners seem to be reporting about 230wh/mile, giving you about 43miles range from a 10kwh usable system. For your longer trips you'd still be getting over 100MPG total with the 10kwh system, wheras the PiP would only be giving you about 60MPG.

    Your typical use of 10-12 miles a day would be very light on a 10kwh system, so I would expect very good life from the cells.
     
  6. Coyotefred

    Coyotefred Member

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    I wondered about that...any idea on a timetable for that? 'Tough to wait when you're driving an older Jeep Liberty getting around 20mpg on a good day...

    'Also wondering how long it will be before we'll see some reliable 3rd party add-on battery capacity for the PIP if Toyota doesn't do it for us...

     
  7. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Depending on if you like the car as much the volt sounds like a better option. You should be able to get 40 miles of ev on those slower rural trips and all of your shorter trips, along with all EV on the 50% of the driving on shorter trips. You get a full warranty on the battery, and it may cost less than the older prius conversion. How many miles do you drive a year? If it is short enough you may want to lease, then buy the newer sparklier car when it satisfies your needs more in the future. Is much of it in cold or hot weather when the EV range will be reduced.

    I don't like the idea of the conversion given its relative cost. IMHO I'd go phv or volt.
     
  8. drinnovation

    drinnovation EREV for EVER!

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    I considered a conversion kit, PIP Volt leaf (and a few others).
    Your speeds may allow you to stay in EV.. but the conversion is only EV upto 52 MPH.. the PiP is 62 which give you a bit more freedom to avoid the ICE start. I was also concerned about the long-term battery management and warrenty issues (which if I recall is just 3 years).
    In the end I chose the Volt.. My daily commute is 35 or so miles and my longer trips are 1120-250.

    A few questions that might impact the "most efficient" path vs cost.

    When you do the longer trips, can you recharge at the half-way point?
    If so then the volt will use much less fuel. If not the volt will save gas but the tradeoff to the PiP will be better.

    If you look around on voltstat.net you might find someone with a similar driving schedule (you can see individusal driving histograms). With you you describe, assuming charging at just one end, for a Volt i would project an average of 110-130mpg if you do 3 days of 75 and 4 of 12. For a PiP, I would project 80MPG. For a conversion I would expect about the same as the PiP.
     
  9. Coyotefred

    Coyotefred Member

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    Unfortunately, the Volt has only about 3.5" of ground clearance which just won't cut it in my area with some of the rougher rural roads, during snow, etc.

    I'm also a little concerned about the Volt's long-term reliability...it may turn out to be excellent, but obviously doesn't have the track record of something like the Prius...

     
  10. sub3marathonman

    sub3marathonman Active Member

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    This proves my point in a previous thread, that the PIP is not that great.

    My choice, which I made long ago, was to get a Hymotion kit installed in the 2006 Prius. That is a 5kw battery though. It would be spectacular to have the 10kw battery. Speaking from experience with my Hymotion kit, with a 10kw battery, there should be about 40 miles of electric before the pack is depleted. The problem is you're really not using the full potential on the 10 - 12 mile trips, you could just as easily have a 5kw kit. We don't really know if a single day though is either in the city or on a trip, or possibly both.

    I would also be very cautious about where you purchase a conversion kit. There has been a great deal of controversy with the suppliers of these kits. I would contact Robb Protheroe at Plug-In Supply before purchasing anything anywhere. I think PriusChat member Kietyyyy might be worth contacting too.

    I will say that the Hymotion kit has its own unique method of operation, such as not being able to go over 32 mph on complete electric. I think the Plug-In-Supply kit allows up to 52 mph, which would be a huge improvement. As far as being able to do 62 mph in a PIP, I don't see the huge advantage over 52, since at those speeds the pack is being depleted very quickly either way.

    But by getting a used 2008 or 2009 Prius, you've already avoided the huge depreciation of a new car and you're ahead enough to benefit from the PHEV kit. Any Prius should have an extremely long lifespan if cared for, so there is less danger getting a used one than with a car that might fall apart when it is 10 years old.
     
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  11. mitch672

    mitch672 Technology Geek

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    The PiP allows FULL regeneration into its onboard 4.4KW pack, the add on kits, nope.
    I have a 15 mile commute, on an expressway.. when its stop and go traffic, I make it the entire way in EV. I have driven the car about 550 miles so far, still have 4 pips on the fuel gauge, and the display is telling me I've used 5 gallons of gasoline and 55KW of electricity... I expect I will fill up this saturday, that wil be 2 weeks of ownership with over 600 miles, and it won't even be a full 9 gallon fillup. These are real world mumbers, my EV/HV percentage is about %50 %50 right now, as I charge at work and home, so most of my driving is in EV, except when I have to visit a client, for example. I would get the PiP [and I did :)], I looked into the conversion kits, and even the owner of Plug in Supply told me to just get a full EV (Leaf was suggested), but that doesn't work for me as 1 vehicle solution.
     
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  12. Flaninacupboard

    Flaninacupboard Senior Member

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    The current Plug In Supply kit is advertised as having 72mph EV mode, and allows regen into the plugin pack.
     
  13. mitch672

    mitch672 Technology Geek

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    could be, but when the owner of the company suggest buying something else, perhaps that should be telling you something.

    I imagine the PHEV conversion companies will be focusing on extending the range of Leafs, Volts, and Plug in Priu at this point, as not many are going to be willing to spend money on upgrading older 2004-2009 Gen II Priu
     
  14. Tracksyde

    Tracksyde Member

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  15. devprius

    devprius /dev/geek

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    If you already had a 2008 Prius, it would probably make more sense to add the plugin kit to the car. But since you have to go out and buy a Prius anyways, to me it makes a lot more sense to just simply get a PiP (if available in your area). There is significant improvement in technology and performance between the Gen II and Gen III Prii. You'll be getting a much better warranty as well, especially on the new battery technology in the PiP.
     
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  16. sub3marathonman

    sub3marathonman Active Member

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    YES, that Robb Protheroe!! Which is amazing to hear, definitely pertinent information, and does create a definite change of opinion to my previous post.

    It also sounds absurd that he would threaten to sue a person for posting on PriusChat. I always did want to read more about the court case he was involved in, but never was able to get the records either from Robb himself or the court there in California.

    Maybe none of these guys can put out a decent kit and stand behind it, leaving only the PIP as the only Toyota choice. I don't know definitely, but I don't think Hymotion is selling any kits anymore either.
     
  17. cproaudio

    cproaudio Speedlock Overrider

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    Hymotion kits are for Gen II only. Many of us are interested in converting our Gen III to PHV.
     
  18. cwerdna

    cwerdna Senior Member

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    Agree completely!

    If the OP has the money and the price is nearly the same, the PiP is a no brainer. Discussion and consideration of a converted 08 should end right now. I wouldn't even muck w/the aftermarket conversion. A new PiP has a warranty on the car, powertrain and a much longer one the battery.

    A used converted 08 has no 3 year/36K basic warranty left, has little of its 5 year/60K mile powertrain warranty left and who knows about the warranty on the HV battery pack and hybrid components due to modifications?

    And yep, there are a lot of new features, toys and improvements on the Gen 3 Prius over the Gen 2. See posts by me, Tideland and evpv at http://priuschat.com/forums/gen-iii-2010-prius-main-forum/88583-prius-versions.html#post1242903 just for the Gen 3 improvements.
     
  19. drinnovation

    drinnovation EREV for EVER!

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    The front air dam is the 3.5" clearance there is an optional shorter air dam that pushes it to 4.9" and if you drive with no air dam its more than 6. It reduces EV range by 1-2 miles to forgo the air dam.
    My Volt's first Colorado Snowstorm. Not too bad. [Archive] - GM-Volt: Chevy Volt Forum


    Reliability can only be measured in time, but so far so it good :)

    :focus:

    I posted before the 52mph limit.. I don't know if that is from a PIS kit, but it is the limit in whatever is in the Boulder Hybrid Conversion installed 10kw Package.
     
  20. Coyotefred

    Coyotefred Member

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    Interesting...this is very helpful to know as it was a major issue for me. How do you feel about the usefulness of the interior space. If I were looking for more of a 'sport car' the Volt would be my obvious choice. But for my needs more of a compact 'utility' vehicle is what I'm after. The Prius isn't exactly that, but seems closer than the Volt. Of course the forthcoming (?!) Toyota Rav4 might be worth waiting for, but part of me would like to get into something now rather than keep waiting for that possible "better" choice somewhere down the road...