Plug-in Owners Plug In More

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by El Dobro, Jun 8, 2013.

  1. El Dobro

    El Dobro A Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2011
    6,731
    3,057
    1
    Location:
    NJ
    Vehicle:
    Other Electric Vehicle
    Model:
    N/A
    mmmodem likes this.
  2. mmmodem

    mmmodem Senior Taste Tester

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2011
    2,668
    1,643
    0
    Location:
    Bay Area, CA
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    This just in! Prius owners fill up gas more often that Prius Plug in owners.
     
  3. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    24,762
    14,095
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    I don't think we know how Plug-Ins will work out but it is great to have choices:
    • ~10 mile EV, efficient ICE - Toyota's first plug-in
    • ~20 mile EV, less efficient ICE - Ford's first plug-in
    • ~40 mile EV, least efficient ICE/drivetrain - GM's first plug-in
    Buyers have choices and for that I am glad.

    Personally, I'm more interested in highly efficient EV of modest range with the option of an exceptionally efficient, range extender trailer capable of covering 1,000 miles in a 24 hour period . . . sustained.

    Bob Wilson
     
    mmmodem likes this.
  4. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2004
    12,275
    4,939
    57
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    It will take awhile for the awareness of non-commute driving to build. That's where Prius shines. Those random trips to visit family & friends, for entertainment, for recreation & vacation. Stuff like that is rarely ever accounted for realistically. Estimates are usually way off.

    Those real-world encounters are where I see Prius shine. Later with a larger battery-capacity and an even more efficient engine, it's a formula to please the masses.

    My routine trips up north where I'm not able to plug in but still see MPG above 50 are great. I do a lot of running around the cities, where daily distance is around 100 miles. That's what happens when you have a full schedule and weekends are far too short.
     
    DadofHedgehog and bwilson4web like this.
  5. Scorpion

    Scorpion Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2013
    440
    162
    2
    Location:
    Lincoln, NE
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    IV
    Tinskey said:

    "And that was a bit surprising, because you think that with a bigger battery, that those customers are going to want to top it off because they have no gasoline to back them up."

    Couple of comments........
    (1) Isn't "topping off" bad for EV batteries? Don't they last longer if you charge them fewer/longer (after deep discharge) then if you do frequent/short charge-ups?
    (2) It should seem obvious that PHEV drivers would plug in more, but the article did not get into the real WHY PHEVs charge more vis-a-vis EVs
    The answer is that the EV driver is:
    (a) more aware of his or her remaining EV miles, since it is 'life or death' versus just a 'game' for PHEVs
    (b) the EV driver is willing to wait to charge at home at night. He/she knows their nighttime rate, especially if they have a TOU meter with their local utility, will absolutely beat the pants off whatever rate a daytime/public charger is charging
    (c) For EV drivers, daytime/public chargers are for 'emergencies' only: when an unexpected trip or heavy A/C use or traffic cause the need for more Kwh's.....nothing more, nothing less. For the PHEV driver, the daytime/public charging rate, no matter how outrageous in its price/kwh, will almost always beat the pants off using the ICE. Hence the 'scavenging/foraging' for daytime charging for PHEVs versus nocturnal charging for EVs
     
  6. mmmodem

    mmmodem Senior Taste Tester

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2011
    2,668
    1,643
    0
    Location:
    Bay Area, CA
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    I'd be fine with 300 - 400 miles. I don't need a sustained range longer than my body can be sustained in an upright position. With a family, I've rarely surpassed the 200 mile point without a break forced upon me by small bladders and stomachs.
     
    fotomoto likes this.
  7. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2008
    11,627
    2,521
    8
    Location:
    Southwest Colorado
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    Two
    There are fairly distinct EV markets:
    • City commuting, rare long distance driving
    • Common long distance driving
    • Two car household
    • One car household
    That adds up to four subsets, enough to keep the manufacturers busy for a while.
    My WAG is that the biggest subset of interested consumers are multiple car households with city commuting and rare long distance driving. That group would be well served by either

    1. HEV + EV
    2. Two PHEVs
    3. HEV + PHEV
     
  8. dipper

    dipper Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2005
    1,239
    251
    0
    Those Plugin hybird at my work thinks they should park there all day and take up L2 charging spots all day. One of the reason EVs don't (rather can't) plugin.
     
  9. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    24,762
    14,095
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    You are hitting on an interesting scaling problem. In Northern climates, plug-in block heaters are more common so it is a fairly small step to higher power, charging. But in North Alabama, only a few Prius owners even know, much less have that technology in their Prius.

    For me, an EV needs to have enough capacity to skip a daily charge. If I come home and a power outage has the house dark, I don't need to wake up the next morning and be stuck and a Leaf would meet that requirement. Unfortunately, it can not handle a day-trip to Nashville and back unless it tows a small, ~15 hp (12 kW) equivalent, high efficiency topping charger.

    Bob Wilson
     
  10. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2008
    5,348
    3,402
    1
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    Other Electric Vehicle
    Model:
    N/A
    I think it makes sense that PHEV drivers plug in more often.
    To take advantage of the electric drive, you want to charge when you don't have enough remaining range to complete your trip.
    PHEVs have a shorter range than EVs, thus they charge more often.
     
  11. wick1ert

    wick1ert Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2009
    1,311
    183
    2
    Location:
    Delawhere
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    III
    This is what I do, when I can. Even if I have sufficient charge left to get from A to B (typically home to work and vice versa), I still top off the battery. It gives me flexibility if I need/want to run an errand, get food, etc and still be able to complete my drive in EV. Since 90% of my driving is within a full charge's range (weather dependent, of course), I always try to keep the pack charged. That's why I paid to have the L2 installed at home. None of the BEVs out there now would allow me to go to my brothers, Uncles, etc and back in a day because neither of them offer the L2 charging option for me. Since I'm a 1 car household (with a motorcycle), I went PHEV because it fit what I needed. The ability for me to be over 160 MPG in a PIP says a good bit as to how good of a fit it is for my daily routines.
     
  12. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2008
    11,627
    2,521
    8
    Location:
    Southwest Colorado
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    Two
    The looming issue I suspect is PHEVs occupying a charge station longer than they need to gain a full charge. This might be most apparent with the PiP since the top-off can take less than an hour.
     
  13. John H

    John H Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2012
    2,208
    556
    0
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
  14. fotomoto

    fotomoto Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2009
    5,407
    3,634
    0
    Location:
    So. Texas
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Why can't the Leaf replace one of your current vehicles and continue to use the Prius for the occasional out of town trip? Also, I'd recommend a home generator in any area with tall pine trees and strong weather.
     
  15. fotomoto

    fotomoto Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2009
    5,407
    3,634
    0
    Location:
    So. Texas
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
  16. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    24,762
    14,095
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    Not a bad unit although a little light on power and heavy on weight but it could work:
    • 1,380 lbs - heavier than desired, the fuel adds 50*6 ~= 300 lbs
    • 41.5 hrs run time - assuming fuel burn is linear, could reduce fuel load 30 gal, and save 120 lbs
    • run will rolling (?) - they mention 'leveling', something to be checked
    • needs aerodynamic and rolling drag treatment - operate while towed
    It does look OK:
    [​IMG]
    Needs leading aero-shell, low-rolling resistance tires, aero-fendors (those are just splash guards), and perhaps a boat-tail. However, it would prefer a non-petroleum engine.

    There are some interesting Stirling engine development:
    http://www1.eere.energy.gov/solar/pdfs/csp_prm2010_infinia_30kw.pdf

    The projected, three-cylinder, 15 kW unit would weight:
    • 3*80 kg = 240 kg (~528 lbs) - reasonable small trailer weight.
    • external heat source - bag of Kingston charcoal comes to mind with microcontroller operated crush-feed auger, vents, and waste ash collection. Properly designed, it should handle everything from coal, corn, sawdust, or wood chips. However, the latter ones would require some sort of anti-smoke technology. Exhaust recirculation to minimize NO{x} generation comes to mind.
    • horizontal with two side-by-side and one trailing - reasonably low profile with tri-sector combustion unit in the middle.
    Bob Wilson
     
  17. John H

    John H Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2012
    2,208
    556
    0
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    Not sure you would be able to find one of those in a rental yard. IMO, if your gonna own it, then might as well put it into the vehicle.
     
  18. drinnovation

    drinnovation EREV for EVER!

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2011
    2,027
    586
    65
    Location:
    CO
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    I wonder about the milage differece between the two models. It has already been observed that Volt drivers do more EV miles (and more miles in general) per day than Leaf drivers ( ECOtality Says Typical Nissan LEAF and Chevy Volt Owners Drive More Miles Per Day Than National Average…Sort Of). The freedom to not worry about it allows PHEVs to push the edge of their battery limits (and exceed them). So for an 80mile trip where I may or may not be able to charge at the other end, the Volt is fine, but a leaf would be dicy. The Energi-FFEV have a greater difference but still maybe range anxiety is a contributing factor.
     
  19. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    24,762
    14,095
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    Not really as I'm still in the watchin', not buying mode. But from an efficiency mode, I would not need the extended range in ordinary driving. But when I do need it, then I have no problem with rental or better yet, purchase of the unit.

    If the thermodynamic efficiency is high enough, I have no problem with a natural gas option and running the house off of it. Use the waste heat for space and water heating and I'm a very happy camper. Then when I leave the house on a trip, connect the trailer and leave the house on 'grid maintenance.'

    Remember, I'm one of the early adopters of 1kW inverters to run the house on Prius-power when the power goes out. I am a fan of co-generation on a home-owner scale and have no problem if it is the Prius engine (both of our Prius have 1kW inverters.)

    Bob Wilson
     
  20. DadofHedgehog

    DadofHedgehog Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2012
    681
    276
    0
    Location:
    northern Virginia
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Advanced
    +1
     
Loading...