Plug-ins do they make sense?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(kirbinster @ May 4 2006, 03:00 PM) [snapback]249904[/snapback]</div>

Saving money is only one small benefit. This isn't ALL about "what's in it for me." But I'll tell you how it saves money - electric motors are substantially more efficient than gasoline engines. A real-world example: My Rav4EV holds less than 1 gallon of gasoline worth of energy in its batteries. I can drive about 120 miles on that energy... which means My boxy little car gets BETTER than 120mpg of gasoline equivalent energy. Put it in a Prius body, and I'd see 180-200 mpg.

A gasoline engine is 15-20% efficient at putting the energy in the tank to the pavement. An EV is over 90% efficient at putting the energy in the batteries to the pavement. If I actually paid for my electricity at the grid rates, my "gasoline equivalent" of energy works out to about 50c/gallon.

Make more sense now? Very few things are as simple as they first seem.

Add the social, political and pollution parts to the equation, and EVs win big.

 

EVs can be based on renewable energy (photovoltaic, hydro, wind) and are not dependent on finite energy sources (oil, coal). EVs can operate independent of outside energy sources and instead can operate on energy sources close to home. EVs are not dependent on centralized energy production because they can make use of distributed energy production (solar, hydro, wind), and are not limited to hundreds of millions years old fossil fuels.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(skruse @ May 4 2006, 03:19 PM) [snapback]249912[/snapback]</div>

Say, Skruse... are you married?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ May 4 2006, 03:32 PM) [snapback]249919[/snapback]</div>

I think "Skruse" has been brainwashed by your many EV threads... so did most of us... :lol:

 

Another thing to consider is that power plants can be fueled with coal, nuclear, or natural gas---things you can't burn in cars. (Well, there are a few natural-gas vehicles.)

And it's easier to limit pollution from a few hundred power plants than from millions of cars.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rick Auricchio @ May 4 2006, 07:16 PM) [snapback]249946[/snapback]</div>

That's the logic that got me to build an all-electric home in 1981. The government is still trying to get power plants to clean up their act.

 

kerbinster,

Darrell answered your question, but just to rephrase and expand a bit --

A Prius hybrid turns about 1/3 of fossil fuel into mechanical energy (compared to 1/4 for a lot of non-hybrid cars), so there is about 35,000 btu of energy to use. So 10 kWh will have an equivalent useful energy amount, and by today's prices will cost $.60 - $1.50, depending where you live.

Thought about another way --
A Prius uses about 0.20 kWh/mile. My home electricity costs 8 cents/kWh (no night rate unfortunately) which works out to ~ 60 miles per ONE dollar.

One other money consideration: Liquid fossil fuel will continue to rise in price, as it becomes more scarce, not to mention it's volatility when someone in S. America/Middle EAst/Africa coughs. Electricity is not subject to the same problems, because it's core source is US coal/nuclear; and it's price is effectively limited by wind power.

SO, even if enviro/securtity considerations do not sway you, the cost should.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(kirbinster @ May 4 2006, 06:00 PM) [snapback]249904[/snapback]</div>

As others have pointed out, you started with a faulty premise. You are assumed that the Gasoline->Wheel efficiency is the same as the Electricity->Wheel efficiency.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tempus @ May 4 2006, 06:26 PM) [snapback]249987[/snapback]</div>

And if that faulty assumption were true, there would be VERY little reason to build hybrids like the Prius! Electric motors have awesome torque, and superior efficiency as compared to ICEs.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dipper @ May 4 2006, 03:36 PM) [snapback]249920[/snapback]</div>

Oh good. So it hasn't been a total waste of time and effort.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DonDNH @ May 4 2006, 04:21 PM) [snapback]249951[/snapback]</div>

While electric power in the US is far cleaner than gasoline production and consumption... we do still have a long way to go. The folks who say we should not be persuing EVs because of the pollution involved in electricity production are aiming their negative energy at the wrong target. Let's keep working toward cleaner electricity, and we'll be in great shape. 100% domestic energy is a worthy goal. While we continue to burn gasoline, we'll never be energy independent in the US.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(kirbinster @ May 5 2006, 09:35 AM) [snapback]250195[/snapback]</div>

Umm, it sounds like you're still missing the point: recharging a car's battery using gasoline is about 1/3 as efficient as plugging it into the wall. The difference in efficiency, which exists inside the car, overcomes the lower cost of energy in gasoline. If it cost you X cents to recharge a battery using electricity purchased from a utility, it would cost you roughly 2X cents worth of gasoline.

But if you were only concerned about your direct costs you would not have installed a Solar PV system. A system that big probably cost you something like $20,000? Ignoring interest or the return you might have made investing that sum, it will take at least ten years to pay for itself. Including interest/returns makes the payback time more like 20 years.

I'm looking forward to buying a plugin hybrid myself to further reduce air pollution and consumption of fossil fuels, not to reduce my costs.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(kirbinster @ May 5 2006, 08:24 AM) [snapback]250226[/snapback]</div>

Even if electricity cost you three or four times MORE than you are paying now, it will still make economic sense to use electricity instead of gasoline whenever possible. Did that point get across in any of my ramblings? I won't go into all the other stuff regarding domestic energy supplies, and being able to control the source and price. The bottom line (for your particular question) is that even at well above the curren highest price of electricity, it is a cheaper transportation fuel than is gasoline.

 

The DOE says that electricity costs on average 9.74 cents in 2005.

The Prius uses 0.15 - 0.20 kWh/mile. Let's use high numbers:

0.2 kWh/mile * 10 cents/kWh = 2 cents per mile.

For most Prius owners, gasoline is 5 - 6 cents per mile.

---
Would you mind providing a detailed post regarding your solar array ? I would love to hear about it, as I am sure many other people here at PC.

Cheers -- Eric

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(richard schumacher @ May 5 2006, 08:01 AM) [snapback]250218[/snapback]</div>

This is a common misperception. The misconception is based on sevearl flawed assumptions. It assumes electricity will stay the same price over time, and it assumes that your "other investments" will do way better than the stock market has averaged. Adding PV increases the value of your home while at the same time paying you back. PV on the roof can lower the load on your AC system as it keeps the sun off the tiles. Installing PV is a guaranteed return on investment that will only increase as energy prices continue to rise. In my case, my payback came the very day I turned my system on. My average monthy electricity bill savings is about $70 - and the principal and interest on the loan I took out to install the system is LESS than $70/month. In two years, the loan will be paid off, and the system will then keep producing for MANY more years for FREE. Any othe question on that???

Note: I'm biased as well as at least mildly educated in this stuff. I'm now a sales rap for a PV installation company... though my system was installed before I was a rep, and at market prices.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(EricGo @ May 5 2006, 08:54 AM) [snapback]250243[/snapback]</div>

Well, there you go. Real numbers intead of just my ramblings.

All that's needed is to follow my EV link in my sig, and choose the SOLAR link on the left.

 

Darrell, I assure you I have read your website more than once.

Thanks!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(kirbinster @ May 5 2006, 12:03 PM) [snapback]250253[/snapback]</div>

I remember now ..

Can you take me through the money part of it ? H/W, installation cost, fed and state rebates ? I know my state of NM will allow 1 kWh of energy returned to the grid to offset 1 kWh of energy used. Not as generous as CA (and apparently NJ), but OK IMO.

I am as excited by home solar today, as I was about the Prius 4 years ago. A large array, and a couple of hybrid electrical bicycles seems like a brilliant proposition. If not today, I'd guess in the pretty near future.