Popular Science "mag" Hybrid negatives?

Here's the log entry I wrote on the absurd statement...

It's like they made up a reason and statistic to explain why MPG drops as the temperature drops. No matter. They didn't include the essentials anyway. Failing to mention that both traffic conditions and heater use change significantly when it's that cold is just plain wrong, because that's where a lot of the MPG loss comes from. The rest is from the fact that winter-formula fuel holds less energy and colder air is denser. So naturally efficient will be lower during the cold season. The battery-pack is actually quite responsive during the cold season, it's really just the capacity that gets reduced. You'll actually observe increased electrical activity then, not less, since keeping the battery-pack cool is much less of an issue. Too bad most reports about hybrid MPG don't include details on the actual performance of traditional vehicles. Cold weather is hard on them as well, in fact, more so. But if they want to make hybrids look bad or they just don't bother to be objective, that's the data to exclude.

 

How does this compare to conventional ICE cars? You must put the data into a proper context. GIGO

 

i believe some of that 26% drop is the unavoidable drop in power in the winter formula gas verses summer formula gas where you will have a 7-12% decrease in mpg FOR ALL VEHICLES. the difference in formula is necessary since summer gas freezes at 40º F. so i guess the article failed to mention that part. i noticed that they failed to mention the fact that normal automobiles take as much as 300% more time to warm up to normal operating temperature than the Prius does. (obviously, having an electric heater does have its advantages~!)

 

One of the many ways the Prius improves on efficiency is by shutting off the ICE when not needed. At zero F. I have my heater on full-blast all the time, and with the heater on full-blast, the ICE never shuts off. This narrows the efficiency difference.

Another way the Prius improves efficiency is by sending unneeded energy to the battery for later use. But with the ICE running all the time (see above) the battery tends to stay at such a high SOC that there is not enough headroom in the battery, and, again, some of the car's efficiency gain is lost.

All cars perform worse in winter. I am convinced that the Prius' advantage over other cars is less in winter than it is in summer. So instead of getting double the mpg, maybe the Prius only gets 50% or 75% more mpg than other cars in winter.

How many years will it take to pay for the difference, through gas savings? The question is meaningless since there's no basis for comparison. You can do the math for a Civic, where there are two identical cars, one with and one without IMA. But what do you compare the Prius to? A Camry? A Corolla? A Pinto? A Yugo? A Ferrari? Compare to a Yugo and you won't pay for the difference in a hundred years of gas; but compare to a Ferrari and you're a hundred grand (or is it two?) ahead right off the lot. --- WOW! I saved two hundred grand by buying my Prius!

The bottom line is that no new car can save money compared to a used one. You don't buy a new car to save money. On the other hand, if you can afford a new car, and the idea of paying the House of Saud for the privilege of adding your bit to the filth we all have to breathe in our air does not appeal to you, the Prius looks like a pretty nice choice. And it's got fun gadgets besides.

But, no, it does not do as well in winter, and its advantage compared to a regular car is probably less in winter.

 

what's the MPG of an Echo in 20F normal driving? compared to 75F, then put it as a percentage. That would at least provide some objectivity to the equation.

 

LOL

So daniel? what you gonna do with all that money you saved?

i suspect i will get worse mileage in the winter, now as far as how much we shall see. we generally get fairly mild winters here but i will let you know... but i do know that you would have to cut the mpg's of my Prius in half before you have to worry about any other car i have beating it.

 

Hmmm. I suppose that with all the money I saved by not buying a Ferrari I could afford a Porsche and a cottage in the Swiss Alps.

Winter? What winter? You don't have winter. Does it ever go below 40 degrees where you are?

 

actually 40º F is about our average overnight low in jan. we do get occasional cold temps for about a week or two every year, but rain is the norm here. we did go 3 winters in a row a few years back with no snow at all.

 

Ah, weather-related smack talk. Priceless : )

 

I am glad I don't have to deal with that 0 degree stuff. We are on similar latitudes but I much prefer the marine climate of the Pacific Northwest. Summer and Winter, but more often in the Summer. I grew up in Ohio and I hate the summer the most. I don't do well in heat and humidity. Cold you can deal with there is a limit to the clothes you can take off in the summer and stay legal.

 

i hear ya,,, that is why im here... the older i get the less i can take the heat... pretty bad for someone born on an island in the south pacific


we are still the northern most state capitol in contigious united states though

 

I visited Seattle for a week. It was beautiful. I loved it. And the coffee was fabulous. But I was unimaginably lucky that it didn't rain while I was there. I'm not sure I could live in a place where it rains 7,000 hours out of the year. And now I've been forbidden coffee because it triggers my atrial fibrillation.

 

well one thing that might surprise many is that seattle doesnt get that much rain.

their rainfall total is just slightly more than Detroits and Chicagos. but is less than Bufalo, Miami, St. Louis among others.

i think we get the rain rep from the Olympics... where we do have the rainiest area in the contigious US...(Alaska and Hawaii do have rainier places... including Mt. Kileuleiya...Kuilei... Kialuik... including some place in Hawaii that receives over 450 inches a year)

 

Ahh You were here between July 6th and September 1, or you got lucky. There is decaf. I could turn you on to a small roaster in Olympia. Yes it is true those of us in the PNW are "pushers". My favorite radio station would refer , a few years ago, to the US east of the Cascades as the latte free zone.

 

I think it was 2 years ago in the fall. It was 7 days without rain, and everyone there considered it a freak event.

Decaf is better than nothing, but really does not taste the same. They have discovered a coffee variety (an arabica, fortunately) that is naturally free of caffeine, and holds promise of full flavor without caffeine. But it will be a decade before it comes to market, due to the time it takes to produce a sufficient quantity of plants, and then grow then to maturity. I don't expect to live that long.

 

Geez Daniel, that sounds a bit ominous. Poor longevity in your family tree? Your age isn't listed and I can't really tell from your avatar ;-)

Regarding decaf, are you comparing Sanka to caffeinated coffee, or using instant or something? I don't do caffeine either, but I really can't tell the difference. I use a local brand (Green Mountain Coffee Roasters) not "big corporate in a can" stuff so maybe that is a difference. They have lots of varieties and blends, plus flavored. Not all are available in decaf but many are.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bruceha_2000\";p=\"39045)</div>

I use top-quality french roast from the best local coffee shop and grind it at home. I have never used a lot of caffeine. Half a cup in the morning, and sometimes another half cup at noon.

I usually made a big mug of very-strong decaf, with just enough real to get my needed (small) dose of caffeine. But I made real coffee often enough to be able to say that the real stuff does taste better. Same beans, same roaster, same roast. Decaffeination removes some of the flavor. I think many hard-core coffee addicts would agree.

 

Uncle & granddad both died a year before my present age. The doc says my heart irregularity is nothing to worry about, but it's gone from the occasional PAC 4 years ago, to several long-ish bouts daily and fibrillation every 2 or 3 days for several minutes to an hour. Some days it's PAC's all day long, and maybe some fibrillation mixed in. Extrapolating, I don't figure the old ticker has a lot of ticks left in it. I'm getting ready to cash in at a good moment. You young-uns are facing a pretty iffy future.

 

Daniel,

Actually as far as afib alone goes you should know that 5% of all americans over the age of 70 are in it chronically, many of them for years. What matters more is why and what other heart problems there are.

Jon