Featured Pratt: solid state battery 2-3 years away

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by Marine Ray, Jan 7, 2022.

  1. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    Here is the catch:

    The stated 360 Wh/kg is at the cell level. The energy density at the cell level is irrelevant, and no one—except apparently NIO—refers to the cell-level specific energy. The actual specific energy is less than 258 Wh/kg, which is the same as for standard lithium-ion battery. Therefore, this is nothing but a marketing gimmick. They are pretending to introduce a new battery technology, whereas in reality they are doing nothing but mix some solid material into the battery ("semisolid electrolyte"), which probably doesn't even improve things and chances are that it actually makes them worse.

    NIO says that the new solid-state batteries (150 kWh) have an ultra-high energy density of 360 Wh/kg (probably on the cell level) and that it's 50% more than in the case of the 100 kWh pack.

    The 84 kWh pack in 2019 was at 180 Wh/kg (on the pack level). We guess that the 100 kWh probably was well above 200 Wh/kg on the pack level.

    The new batteries are promised to offer "good battery life" and "higher charging efficiency," but details were not provided.


    NIO announces 150 kWh solid-state batteries for 2022

    The moral of the story, which I repeat on this forum frequently, is "Take the news you read with a grain of salt."
     
  2. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    And NIO is supposed to release more info at an auto show this month, and have roughly a year to deliver on an actual product.

    I, and likely others, have doubts about their claims. The fact that NIO plans to allow make them available through their battery as a service program means these batteries are too expensive for direct sales, or that NIO wants to be able to take failing packs out of service with less notice. They do have cars on the road in China, with 3000 battery swap stations, and a network of fast chargers. So don't see the need to dismiss their claims out of hand.

    While it is part of the CEO's job to hype, they could have gone with better efficiency numbers if this was all lies. The Model 3 with 150kWh could probably get 1000km range on the EPA, let alone the easier than NEDC, CLTC.
     
  3. mikefocke

    mikefocke Prius v Three 2012, Avalon 2011

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    Until it has been tested in the wild and reported on to meet the claims and you can buy it, any press release is PR puffery.
     
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  4. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    NIO ET7 is a large car of the size Tesla Model S. Back when it debuted, the specific energy was not much higher than 100 Wh/kg. Today for standard lithium-ion battery, it is close to 260 Wh/kg, which is more than the double. The start-up just demonstrated a 207.3 kWh battery swapped in place of the original Tesla Model S 103.9 kWh battery. It can easily be done. NIO ET7's 150 kWh will simply be a 50% larger and 50% heavier battery than for their standard 100 kWh capacity. The "solid-state" part is simply a gimmick. They don't have a partner who knows how to build a real solid-state battery. In fact, currently, there is no company who knows how to build a practical real solid-state battery for EV use. It is still in the research and development stage and at least about three years down the road from now. Chinese companies don't create new technology—they develop and manufacture existing technology—and when you hear one claiming to discover new technology, it is basically always false.

    By the way, the following headline is wrong, as it is not a prototype battery. It is simply a demonstration battery sourced from a mainstream manufacturer to show that the current battery technology is far superior to the technology of several years ago. The company's intended porotypes will use different chemistries, and they haven't been manufactured yet.

    Tesla Model S goes 752 miles with a start-up's prototype battery
     
    #24 Gokhan, Jan 9, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2022
  5. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Articles on NIO's battery call it semi solid state. Posts here have called it that. I don't see why you feel the need to put so much effort into debunking their solid state claim as no one really has bought, or repeats, the solid state claim.

    The ET5 was unveiled last month. It is the same size class as the Model 3. This is the one NIO is claiming a 1000km range with the 150kWh pack. it is 550km with the base 75kWh pack.
     
  6. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    In that case, it is the same battery as in ET7.



    As I said, it is a marketing gimmick. The stated 360 Wh/kg is blatantly false, as it is at the cell level, not the pack level. The info on their supplier's web site shows less than 260 Wh/kg for the "solid-state" battery modules they are supplying. They have no advantages over standard lithium-ion battery, and they could be worse. So, it's actually more of false marketing than of a marketing gimmick. The standard lithium-ion battery electrolyte typically contains polymer, and therefore, it is "semisolid," too. Tesla et al. don't market them as "solid-state" or "semisolid" batteries. They are lithium-ion polymer batteries that have been commercially available for over a decade. Hence, this is total nonsense from NIO and its new battery partner.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_polymer_battery
     
    #26 Gokhan, Jan 9, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2022
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  7. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    OK, Beijing WeLion (sometimes translated as Weilan by Google) New Energy Technology Co, Ltd is working on an actual solid-state battery. However, it is still in a research and development stage. The products they currently have on their website have a specific energy no higher than that of a standard lithium-ion battery. I am surprised that NIO expects these batteries to be installed in their cars later this year. Here is more info. Use Google Translate unless you can read Chinese.

    Chen Liquan, Academician of Chinese Academy of Engineering: Solid-state batterie_北京卫蓝新能源科技有限公司
     
    #27 Gokhan, Jan 9, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2022
  8. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Reminds me of the old ‘beta software’ wars.

    Bob Wilson
     
  9. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    This is fairly strange information. You pointed to a currently produced 13 cell non automotive battery pack which likely uses welion 281 wh/kg cells. Automotive pack overhead for safety and temperature range is going to be significantly heavier.

    The cells in nio's 100 kwh pack are 240 wh/kg - so a 150 kwh pack using 360 wh/kg would have the same weight in cells. Pack overhead is likely higher so it will weigh a little more.

    We will see when the packs come out. NIO is unique in that they have swap stations ready to move and test these packs. No the NCA in tesla's are not lithium polymer, although some lithium ion like those in my iphone are often called lithium polymer.

    Welion is working on full solid state as well as lithium metal anode with solid electrolyte, with liquid for the cathode. This appears to be a straight lithium polymer. It has an energy density much higher than their existing lithium polymer, and they have mainly been an R&D company, which is why I expect the packs to be late.

    Toyota, Quantum Scape, Solid Power, Samsung, LG, CATL, and Hyrdro Quebec have large budgets to develop batteries with at least solid metal (sodium or lithium) that meets a solid or gel electrolyte. Welion looks like this will help fund its reseach and development also.[/quote][/QUOTE]
     
  10. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    WeLion is using an LATP (Li_1+xAl_xTi_2−x(PO_4)_3) solid-state electrolyte coated on a polymer membrane. It is still in a research and development stage, and it is surprising that NIO expects to put it in their cars later this year. This is more or less the technology they are using: Note that it is not a lithium-ion polymer battery. It is currently a lithium-ion battery with a solid electrolyte (LATP on a polymer membrane) on the anode side, and they also want to make a lithium-metal battery by switching from a carbon/silicon anode to a lithium-metal anode. It is still in a research and development stage. To achieve 360 Wh/kg, they would need close to 50% silicon on the anode, which is a long shot due to the volume expansion problem with the silicon. Their LATP solid-state electrolyte is also highly brittle and unstable, but they are trying to reinforce and stabilize it with coatings etc. By in situ solidification, WeLion is referring to the solid–electrolyte interface (SEI) films formed on both sides of the LTPA/polymer separator, which they think are helping their battery. Since they don't have a lithium-metal anode, with the existing stable cathode materials, the only way they can exceed about 260 Wh/kg is by increasing the silicon content on the anode. Solid Power has been struggling with their design of a high-silicon-content-anode battery, despite claiming to have a very good sulfide electrolyte, and to me it is surprising and skeptical that a company can overcome the difficulties in cell stability, especially for high-silicon-content anodes, by using something widely known and available and as simple as an LTPA solid-state electrolyte. Chances are that NIO will later announce delays for this battery.

    https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/aenm.202101339
     
    #30 Gokhan, Jan 9, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2022
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  11. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

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    Tesla Semi 4680 Battery Pack Engineering Analysis

    "We estimate that the 500-mile pack will be approximately 875 kWh and 900 Volts DC. Total pack weight (not just cells) of 9243 pounds taking credit for reduced weight of current collectors from the higher voltage."

    That works out to 208Wh/kg at the pack level for a large 4680-based Tesla pack.
     
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  12. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    Thanks for the info. WeLion's (NIO's battery partner) cells are still in research and development stage. Their current products don't seem to be much higher in specific energy than Tesla's and it's doubtful if they can go much higher, as the only way to do so in a non-lithium-metal solid-state battery is to increase the silicon content in the carbon/silicon anode, which is very difficult.
     
  13. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    Reading what Gill Pratt said, Toyota is nowhere close to making a solid-state battery. It is not happening for them. A battery that doesn't last as long and costs more than the standard lithium-ion battery available today is not practical for EV use. And, no, you can't use a production car as a test bed.

    "Solid-state batteries are, at the moment, more expensive to produce, he said, and since hybrids have smaller battery packs than EVs, implementing them in hybrids first will reduce the cost."

    "The other challenge facing solid-state batteries currently is battery life, with repeated charging taking a toll on early prototype batteries. In a hybrid, the smaller battery is charged and recharged far more often, and Pratt suggested that the increased amount of cycling for the batteries will make hybrids a good test bed for the new technology."


    First Toyota with solid-state batteries will be a hybrid

    Given the number of patents and decades of research by Toyota on this, in combination with Toyota's size and power, if it is not happening for them, it is not happening for virtually no other solid-state-battery hopeful either, especially for companies like NIO/WeLion.
     
    #33 Gokhan, Jan 11, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2022
  14. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Good thing NIO's ultra-long range battery isn't solid state then.
     
  15. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    Well, it is solid-state on the anode side. There is no liquid electrolyte covering NIO/WeLion's carbon/silicon anode, perhaps except for a very small amount to increase ionic conductivity. The anode otherwise makes direct contact with their LTPA solid-state electrolyte, perhaps with some polymer passivation layer. I doubt they can obtain 360 Wh/kg with it, especially at this early stage of research and development. Perhaps they will install it only in a few cars so that it can be real-world-tested—probably the customer returning it only after a few months because of a failure and getting a fast and free "battery swap" with the standard 100 kWh battery plus a refund for the premium originally paid.
     
  16. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    I had a neurology professor that talked about dog and violin problem, you only needed to teach one dog to play the violin to prove it was possible, you didn't need hundreds or to have a theory on why it was possible, you just needed to do it.

    Going by that, can you produce commercially viable solid state anode/electrolyte batteries? bollore's blue solutions has been doing that with tech they bought from hydro Quebec since 2012. These batteries are now in mecedes eCitaro busses.
    Bjørn Nyland Checks Out Solid-State Battery-Powered Mercedes eCitaro

    Can welion build 350 wh/kg semi solid batteries? They demonstrated 400 wh/kg cells with this technology, of course they can. The key is finding the right combination of electrolytes. Nio is likely a good test bed for this giving real world results. Welion talks about a spectrum on the amount of water in an electrolyte.

    Tesla bought Maxwell technology for its dry electrode manufacturing technology. It has further developed that and kept those patents, while selling off the company with its super cap production and technology. This tech is promising to both reduce cost/kwh and increase energy density.

    The blue solutions LMP proves you can do solid state. They have excellent safety and cost and do not require cooling. Energy density and charge rate are worse than state of the art lion though. The big problem is temperature range, they need to be hot to work, which means either vampire drain or be plugged in and set to be warm when needed. This works for busses but not light transportation. All the solid state in the labs claims to have solved these problems, but cost and reliability are still being worked on.

    Nio in the 75 kwh hybrid pack has done something that will likely raise the barriers to solid state. They are using LFP for the low cost and and less need for cooling, in combination with NMC for higher energy density and better cold weather performance.

    Lots of research into materials and manufacturing promises improved batteries.
     
  17. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    No... Their solid-state batteries have a lot of problems. They require high temperatures and high pressures. They also had a recall recently. They may no longer be installed in the buses. They are certainly not suitable for cars and trucks. They are probably being internally shorted by dendrites, which have been the problem plaguing the progress on the development of lithium-metal batteries.

    Mercedes–Benz eCitaro buses with solid-state batteries recalled
    The type of cathode—NMC, LFP, etc.—has nothing to do with solid-state or not.

    Coming up with a new battery technology is extremely difficult. It's more like going to Mars than training a dog. The battery needs to work under every condition, and there is usually one condition, like temperature, pressure, power, energy, cycle life, safety, cost, etc., which prevents commercialization. That's why it has been over 30 years people have been working on a lithium-metal battery, with still no practical one for EV applications.
     
    #37 Gokhan, Jan 12, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2022
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  18. privilege

    privilege Active Member

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    i thought the fusion guys were getting bumped off before they succeeded?
     
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