Pray that people are not hurt by the fires? (LA and SD)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(F8L @ Oct 23 2007, 08:49 PM) [snapback]529549[/snapback]</div>

Hard to say. Here in earthquake country (you aren't all that far away from it yourself) all the cities have adopted very strong earthquake building codes that add significant cost to any architectural project, yet I'm not aware of there ever being any significant resistance to their adoption. Virtually all the major damage today is sustained by pre-code structures (of which there are many, but some cities enforce earthquake retrofitting for municipal and other publicly accessed structures). Why our attitude regarding protection from earthquakes is sane, proactive and effective yet our attitude regarding protection from flood and fire is nearly 100% reactionary, with very little in the way of wild or wetlands management, is puzzling. The bafflement is compounded by the fact that both flood and fire occur with an annual/seasonal predictablility you could set a chronograph by, whereas earthquakes (of significant severity) are rare events separated by decades. Perhaps the difference is in the property focus: earthquake preparedness is the responsibility of individual structure owners, whereas flood and fire land management require oversight on a scale of several thousand square miles across municipal and county borders, making effective coordination and cooperation difficult, to say nothing of the problem of finding any party willing to take on the responsibility.

Yes, I know the Hayward Fault is a BIG problem, but it's a big problem only because so much of what's atop it was built before anyone knew it existed, and was built before cities got serious about their building codes. Meanwhile, we build entire housing tracts in delta floodplains behind crumbling 19th century levees, KNOWINGLY. Go figure.

Mark Baird
Alameda CA

 

I don't know how you would "manage" the kind of desert scrub and arid lands that are burning in San Diego. You want to scrape them clean? Water them? Put up giant screens so the wind is diverted? Maybe we can make Mother Nature take out an Environmental Impact Report next time she wants to have the wind kick up. Or make everyone live in energy efficient high rises in urban centers and leave the scrub to the coyotes.

We have to change our "management" techniques every few years because we realize we're making things worse. Its about a 10 year cycle ... its nice that you are in school now and know everything, but in ten years some kid will come along and lecture you that you've been doing it wrong the last ten years, and call you an idiot. It won't be any use talking to him, because he will be studying the "latest" techniques in school.

Government doesn't do well with this kind of planning. It can kind of knock a ball in a certain direction, but it isn't ever going to be able to make that bank shot off the bumper on the left, knock the 8-ball against the 6 and sink it.

A call to prayer is a way to focus attention and tell people you care. I know it causes the 3% of the population who are atheists great distress, but for the rest of the people in the country, its a nice expression of concern and comfort. And we know that those who pray about a situation are more focused on it, and will donate more to relief efforts. We need that kind of expression more during the immediate situation than we do finger pointing and recriminations.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(F8L @ Oct 23 2007, 10:49 PM) [snapback]529549[/snapback]</div>

Does his healthy forest policies(allowing loggers) to decrease fuel load makes sense then?

I'm as big as a bush hater as the next guy, but this isn't his fault. When 12 fires break out spontaneously in the same weekend under the worst conditions, me thinks there's some underhandedness going on.

As for praying. I'm assuming this is all part of god's plan.

 

I'm guessing praying makes the people who can do nothing about the fires feel like they are doing something.
Fire hazard can be reduced by annual or bi-annual back burning. Keeping a reasonable space around homes and ad campagns to get people to clean their gutters. Spark resistant home design like wire mesh in vents, sealed shutters on windows, independant water supplies like a petrol pump and a supply of fuel on hand to use swimming pool water for fire fighting, I have a friend who lives at the top of a gully, he has an automatic sprinkler system on the roof with huge water storage tanks.

It may not be possible to stop fires from happening but the danger they pose can be lessened. It isn't always the governments fault but they need to educate the population about fire prevention and safety. Strong winds and hot weather have happened before, there is no reason not to be ready. Our summer is just starting, we have already had ads telling people in fire prone areas to reduce fuel loads in their property, clear gutters, seal spark access points. make a fire action plan, plan to leave or plan to stay and fight because if you have no plan you are in grave danger. If you chose to stay and fight the fire but have nothing to fight the fire you place yourself in danger but if you then change your mind at the last minute the level of danger is much higher again.

 

What Patsparks said. Well put.

My 2 cents: Too many houses in too many questionable areas. Too few people realize fire is natural and normal for many areas. Some tree species have evolved to use fire to 'pop' open seeds...thus requiring fire to reproduce! Prescribed fire is the answer, not wholesale logging and stripping the land of the biggest, most fire-resistant trees. Uncontrolled development bad, fire good.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(F8L @ Oct 23 2007, 10:49 PM) [snapback]529549[/snapback]</div>

Isn't a big part of the problem building houses in places where fires are historically very common. I liken it to having a house on the culf coast and wondeng why a hurricane destroys it, in North Dakota wondering why it gets buried in snow every now and then, or in death valley and wondering why it is always hot and never rains or in a flood plain and wondering why it floods. Simplification I know, but true?

i am not sure how the federal government is alwaysresponsible for all the disasters?

 

It's interesting to see the responses to this disaster. When the hurricane struck, there were threads comprised of posters espousing that it's the fault of the people that chose to move to an area known for hurricanes. Why does the event of a natural fire provoke a different tone - or does it boil down to class perception/issues?

The benefits (both ecological and economical) of controlled burns are widely documented. I'm certain that our understanding of this dynamic won't change much. Much as we don't seem to get that viable wetlands would've diminished the consequences of the hurricane, we don't seem to get that controlled burns would diminish the consequences of natural fire outbreaks. Why don't we perform controlled burns around homes in fire prone areas in order to diminish the intensity of the fire around such homes? This would probably be far less costly than the expenses faced by insurance companies currently.

I have to agree w/ F8L in that we mismanage these foreseen natural events. The mismanagement of fire control proved evident when the administration approved logging of our forests to prevent fire occurrences. The ecological and economical consequences of this will be significant - species loss, invasive species colonization, soil erosion. All of these have a significant economical consequence.

 

Periodic wildland fire is an integral part of many healthy ecosystems, southern California included. Those people who chose to build "starter castles" in chaparral are in denial. Chaparral has to burn in order to reproduce. No rational person lives in an area with high fire potential and high fuel loads.

It is often said that "La Niña burns and El Niño churns." We are in a current La Niña event and large wildland fires are an expected event. There is no mystery here. This is not a "disaster" (an unexpected and unforeseen event).

A major problem is that those in denial and subject to reoccurring wildland fires expect others to pay for the control of fires, erosion, air quality and all the other impacts. Time is overdue to pay attention.

 

Skruse...I agree.

In 2003, lots of fires. What did CA learn and improve?
Especially the people.

Back then, more to the South in Mexico, there hardly was any fire activity.

In 2007, lots of fires. I don't see any improvement other than people responding to evacuation orders as they should be doing.

More to the South in Mexico....no puffs of smoke...

IOW, from my POV, it's most likely Americans in CA, with their lifestyle, has made a haven for these out of control fires to spread.
Like the type of roofing shingles used.

 

Wood shingles are forbidden. In fact, prior to the law outlawing cedar shingles some homes had them. The homeowners tried to get permission from the Homeowners association to change them and were DENIED. Their homes burned in the Cedar Fire. Needless to say, to avoid lawsuits those associations changed their bylaws really fast.

Part of the reason there is fuel to burn is that homeowners are not allowed to remove brush due to environmental protection laws. Not even weeds. Because they're NATIVE weeds.

A few years back we got excessive rains and everything grew. This year, not enough rain and everything dried out. How were we supposed to control the rain or lack thereof?

The Witch Creek fire was caused by Santa Ana winds whipping powerlines so badly they sparked and ignited the brush. The winds whipped the fire along. The winds were so strong aircraft were grounded so the fires had to be fought on the ground. What is your solution? Bury all of the powerlines and transformers? Get rid of them? That's not likely to happen.

What changed since the last time?

People were better prepared. They heeded evacuation warnings. They were calm. Communication was better. There was a reverse 911 system in place to call people to have them evacuate. That was lacking in 2003. That alone eliminated needless deaths. The authorities had better communications in place and a better organizational system. That got us help faster and it was used better. We had more and better equipment on hand. And help came faster and more efficiently.

I'm not sure exactly what your point is. We should all pack up and move out of Southern California? Not very practical. Where do you propose we go where there is no danger of fire? Or flood? Or Tornado? Or Hurricane?

 

In south-eastern Australia power lines in fire prone areas are held apart with spacers which are attached to the power lines 2 or 3 evenly spaced out between the poles making contact impossible. This was a lot cheaper than repairing the damage of just 1 fire while it may prevent many fires. If power lines started these fires they are not a natural occurrence but caused by neglect. The wind has blown strongly there before hasn't it? So it is incumbent on utilities to allow for conditions that have occurred before, that’s why roads have drains under them even though they might be built in a period of no rain.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(patsparks @ Oct 24 2007, 07:28 PM) [snapback]529952[/snapback]</div>

I don't remember if it was lines or a transformer or what. I'm sure our liines have whatever safety measure they should have. 45 mph winds. Maybe they blew a pole down. I don't know. I just heard one was a result of winds and electrical lines.

I did hear today that two fires were set by an arsonist who was shot while caught in the act of lighting a third fire.

 

Google Maps just created a guide as to where the fires are. Here's the LA one

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?uid=1091035...tm_term=lafires

& the SD one (which makes me very sad)
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?f=q&hl=...;utm_term=fires

 

1. Stop building. Right. Like that's gonna happen.

2. More funding. Right. Like that's gonna happen.

3. See number's 1 & 2.

 

It has nothing to do with attitude, ignorance or denial of "American public".

Houses are built in marginal areas because it's CHEAP. For some people they live with a long commute from an outlying area because it is the only way they can afford to be homeowners.

I'm not the only one against runaway development. If I had had my way there wouldn't be the urban sprawl or the density San Diego City and County have. (That would take care of the freeways problems too.) But developers have money and their candidates get elected (and vote their way) and the votes on public intiatives go their way because they have the money to advertise ballot initiatives their way. There are plenty of advances in building that are darn hard to implement because you're fighting local (antiquated) building codes. The average person can't get those kind of laws changed. And the average person doesn't have the money to fight that sort of thing. Because it costs plenty of money to get exemptions, special permits, and go through the process several times in rotation because of some bureaucrat somewhere that is still using sticks and club. I looked into underground housing when I was in high school. At the time, not permitted in my county. Metal studs? They're still using wood here. Prefab? Around there it's still stick construction. And it goes on and on. I see stuff on HGTV and I can't get it. Twenty years and I'm finally going to get a tankless water heater. How long have they been using them in Europe?

Goverment, be it Federal, State or Local doesn't have enough money to manage the land properly and do healthy clearing to maintain a healthy ecosystem. We can't even afford healthcare for our children. (But we can apparently afford TRILLIONS of dollars for a pointless war. Who did you vote for again?)

I'd also like people to be able to clear brush beyond their property since they can't count on the government to do it. Unfortunately that means intruding on public land and open space. Environmentalists don't want that touched. In fact it is against the law. In fact it's against the law whether you clear it or not. After the Cedar fire of 2003 a woman was on the news with two letters. Both from two different departments of the government. One said she had to clear her property or face a fine. The other stated if she cleared her property, she would face a fine. Huh? Clearing only your property isn't very effective when you've got public brush right up to your property line. Can people do more? Sure. But some people have done everything possible and still lost everything. People do what they can. The government isn't doing it's part to ensure that public lands pose no threat to private property that abutts it.

If I lived in those areas I'd have a tile roof, stucco house and iceplant surrounding my property. I'd have a sprinkler system both inside and out. But sometimes that's not enough.

Do you have drapes on your windows? That's how the fires get in. The heat explodes the windows and the drapes catch on fire.

Of course, in a fire like this, it is pretty much impossible to protect your house from fire no matter how wide a clearance there is. Trees explode, embers are shooting up in the air and carried by winds and dropping down and finding something to burn.

Bottom line: Easy for you to say. Looks like So. Cal isn't the only place full of hot air.