Pre-collision failed to work which leads to an accident. Suggestion needed.

Discussion in 'Prime Main Forum (2017-Current)' started by Tomca, Nov 13, 2021.

  1. Tomca

    Tomca Junior Member

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    Hi guys,

    Just had an accident merging to a highway. The car at front stopped before yeild line while there is no car. I was checking at the line then accident happened. I checked the dashcam, the car at front stopped 3 times. And it was comepltely stopped when I hit. The repair is estimated around 8-10k at a toyota dealership.

    Since I no longer have full coverage, and nobody was injured, lawyers are not interested in taking my case. The pre-collision was on at the time and it did not work. Anyone know if the toyota would take responsibility for these kind of situation and repair my car?

    Anybody sued toyota for this matter or knows any good lawyer, please let me know.

    Thanks in advance.
     
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  2. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    from everything i've read about tesla self driving, the driver is always responsible. until the government approves completely autonomous vehicles, that will probably continue to be the case.
     
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  3. Tomca

    Tomca Junior Member

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    Ok. I guess that's the end of my line. I have to repair the car myself then. It's an one time event, but I think it might be a good idea to keep the full coverage til the car's value reaches a certain point. It only worth around 20k on the market right now, and that's half of it's price. (n)
     
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  4. Tomca

    Tomca Junior Member

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    But if you think a bit more about this, the pre-collision feature is included in the price right, so is it kinds of a mecanical malfunction?
     
  5. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    it is a malfunction so to speak, i just think they deny responsibility. check that section of the manual and see if there are any disclaimers.
    a number of people here have reported that it doesn't work at times.
     
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  6. MalachyNG

    MalachyNG Member

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    Ultimately it is the driver's responsibility to be in control at all times. Emergency braking is an assist. Did the "BRAKE!" alarm pop up? It may well have activated or at least brake assist activated and helped you without you knowing. It applies additional power in an emergency brake situation. It's designed to help slow you down but it won't keep a crash from happening. Laws of physics still apply. Laws of man typically also presumes you're at fault if you hit something in front of you. Inattention and following too closely may be the sort of ticket to expect in such a situation, even if the other driver was acting cooky.

    Toyota does include a black box kind of feature that will save data immediately leading to a crash. Police and insurance companies can access the data, but it probably wouldn't help you in a suit. It might actually hurt your case if the data shows you crashed even after all safety features kicked in but you were going too fast and following too closely for them to avoid the accident.

    It's good that everyone is ok so the other safety features like your seatbelts and crumple zones did their jobs.
     
  7. MalachyNG

    MalachyNG Member

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    Another thing to consider is these features rely on radar to compare speeds but to avoid it hitting your brakes at every weird obstacle it ignores things that are stationary. Imagine your emergency brake going off as you're merging into an express lane because there's a crash barrier ahead as you're merging. If the other car was already completely stopped your system could have been working as designed
     
  8. Tomca

    Tomca Junior Member

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    I have two cars, I know that a red alarm symbol is suppose to apear on your screen, and a alarm should sound. But none of them happened.
     
  9. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    Toyota take responsibility for this collision? Not just 'no', but 'HELL NO!'. This is just an SAE Level 2 of driving automation, not the Level 3 or 4 you need to start shifting liability to anyone else. Nothing on the consumer market has yet made it to those higher levels. About your only theoretical angle of legal attack is to document fraudulent or misleading marketing.

    Here is what your 2017 Prius Prime Owner's Manual says, on page 361:

    upload_2021-11-13_18-50-36.png

    Here are the SAE Levels of Driving Automation:


    SAE driving levels.GIF
     
    #9 fuzzy1, Nov 13, 2021
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2021
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  10. pghyndman

    pghyndman Active Member

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    Absolutely 100%!
     
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  11. vvillovv

    vvillovv Senior Member

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    No suit would be in your best interest. To the best of my current knowledge of the law (which is not all that much, especially punitive claims) Even in nofault states, a collision to another vehicles rear end is on the driver that initialed the collision from behind, typically.
    There is another problem with a possible case, no matter who it might be initiated against, given the details as explained above so far. The safety sense PreCollision system can be overridden by the driver, even when the warnings on the MID flash and the system alarms go off alerting the driver.
     
  12. jerrymildred

    jerrymildred Senior Member

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    Besides getting maximum enjoyment from the car, this is yet another reason I keep telling people to RTFM. Thanks, @fuzzy1 for saving me the trouble of retrieving the info and uploading it. ;)

    There is no basis for a lawsuit since Toyota broke no promises. If you have a dash cam, you might be able to demonstrate that the driver caused the collision with unnecessary and repeated braking.
     
  13. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    in ma, the driver behind is always responsible, unless someone behind them pushes them into the car in front.
     
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  14. sam spade 2

    sam spade 2 Senior Member

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    There are some "assumptions" made with the design of that feature......at least on the older models.
    The warning is not active, I think, if your foot is already slightly pressing the brake. Also maybe if you are completely off the gas.
    It also may not activate if the vehicle ahead is slightly off to one side.

    Bottom line: The accident is 100% the fault of the driver. YOU.
    It sounds like you need some additional training in defensive driving techniques.
    AND in taking personal responsibility.
     
  15. kenmce

    kenmce High Voltage Member

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    >Just had an accident merging to a highway. The car at front stopped before yield line while >there is no car.

    I sometimes do this. It means I am not absolutely sure I have an big enough opening. Usually I am looking way down the incoming lane just to be sure. I have to trust that the driver behind me is on the ball.


    >I was checking at the line then accident happened.

    I don't understand what you are saying here.


    >I checked the dashcam, the car at front stopped 3 times. And it was completely stopped when >I hit.

    S/he is allowed to stop at any time for any reason. They may even have a duty to stop, even if other cars can't see why.


    >The repair is estimated around 8-10k at a toyota dealership.

    Check with a private shop or two. Their price could be different.


    >Since I no longer have full coverage, and nobody was injured, lawyers are not interested in >taking my case.

    There is also the tiny, tiny matter that under US law you haven't a snowballs chance. They would be taking your money while knowing that there was nothing honest that they could do.


    >The pre-collision was on at the time and it did not work.

    1.) I thought the pre-collision was always on?

    2.) The pre-collision may not be active at speeds under 30 MPH, you'd have to check regarding your exact car.

    3.) The things it does may be subtle, especially if your attention is on the accident. Have you checked what the black box says?

    4.) Toyota never says that the car is uncrashable or infallible. They say it will attempt to help you if it can, under some conditions, not that it replaces you. Even a $100 K Tesla can't do all the driving for you.


    >Anyone know if the toyota would take responsibility for these kind of situation and repair my >car?

    I'm not familiar with any jurisdiction where they would have any responsibility for this event.


    >Anybody... knows any good lawyer, please let me know.

    I think the lawyers you have already approached are good (Or at least honest) because they refused to take your money for no purpose.


    Look. You messed up. So do I. Everybody does. It sounds like the car kept *you* from getting badly hurt, which is the most important thing. Mammals learn by making mistakes. That's how we improve. Suck it up. Go take some driver refresher courses to put you back on the top of your game.
     
    #15 kenmce, Nov 14, 2021
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2021
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  16. PT Guy

    PT Guy Senior Member

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    A rule of thumb about buying collision insurance...if you can afford to write a check to fix or replace the car, don't buy collision insurance. Otherwise buy it, but maybe with a higher deductible to reduce the cost. Do shop around for insurance. Find a glossary of car insurance terms, decide what coverage you need vs. what you're willing to pay for or what you get elsewhere (medical, maybe). Shop those coverages around among various agents and web sites. The range of pricing will surprise you. Every few years I bundle my home, earthquake, cars, and umbrella policies together and offer them to other insurers. I bundle for both a minor savings and for my convenience. So far I've found rates that are higher or equal to what I have, but nothing lower yet.

    There is no industry standard definition of full coverage. It includes whatever the agent lumped together. You may need some coverages, not need others, maybe need higher limits on some.
     
  17. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    I do similar comparison shopping every now and then but only for the car. I have found bundling discounts is not worth the trouble of going through the real estate valuation every time I ask for the homeowner's insurance quote. So I have not changed it for years... changed only once since purchasing the house due to inability to get the initial insurance company suggested by the realtor to cover with our dogs. I don't need an earthquake and umbrella policy.

    For the car insurance needs, ever since I switched to GEICO when I first purchased a new Gen3 Prius ~6 years ago, I have not found any other insurance company that can offer me better value and service for my car insurance needs. My rule of thumb for buying collision and comprehensive policy is that if the total annual cost of the premium for collision and comprehensive part is less than 1/10 of the value of the car, then I buy them. Yes, I have money to write a check to fix or replace the car, but I would rather pay 1/10 or less for premium annually than pay the entire cost out of my pocket if the car is stolen or totaled. Of course, since I decided to finance the car rather than pay cash for the car, I must have the collision and comprehensive coverage on the car, 2021 PP Ltd for now. I could have paid for it in cash, but with the low-interest rate of 1.24% APR financing it, it made absolutely no sense to use the money parked in an investment account earning ~8% or more annual return.

    But the fact is that for me, the cost of collision and comprehensive coverage is very cheap in our local for our driving situations. For a mere ~$300/car per year, I can have zero deductible comprehensive and collision coverage. That's only $3,000 for 10 years for a car valued more than $30K when new. And increasing the deductible is just silly for my situation. I may save ~$100/year if I increase the deductible to the max they offer which is $2500 (per claim). I have to keep 25 years of claim-free period to realize the saving of $2500. If I have a single claim with even minor damage within the ownership of the car which is usually much less than 10 years, then all the saving is gone. For me, insurance is something I hope I never have to use, but if I am never going to use it, then I don't need insurance. If I have to have insurance to cover potential loss, then I usually buy the maximum coverage I can afford. Of course, everyone's situation is different, so this rule does not apply to everyone.
     
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  18. Tomca

    Tomca Junior Member

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    Just an update: So after they teared down my car for inspection, the estimate increased to 24k now. which means my car is totaled. Well, a lesson learn in the hard way. Buy the collision insurance before the car's value dropped to a certain point.
    For 20 years no accident ever happened, then immediately after you paying off a new car and removed collision, this happens.
     
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  19. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    I am very sorry to hear the result of your inquiry. If I may give you a piece of advice as to how to proceed from here, try getting more estimates from other repair shops. Since you do not have insurance coverage for your vehicle, there is no "write-off" on this repair. You will be surprised to find very wide ranges of repair estimates and thus the ultimate cost for repair for the same damage. I just had very minor damage to the side of my car and had a half dozen of repair shops write up the estimate. In my case, it will be covered by my insurance, so the cost to me will not change which is $0. But for my own reference, I wanted to check it myself. As it turned out, the insurance company did virtual inspection only from photos, and the adjuster came up with a $1,693 estimate. Compared to this, six different body shops gave me a wide range of estimates from $848 to $4,419 as shown.

    Geico virtual estimate from photos: $1,693 (parts $148, labor @$48/hr 28hr $1344, paint supplies $207, +misc&tax)
    Local Bodyshop1 inspected: $4,419 (parts $435, labor @$55/hr 61.5hr $3382m paint supplies $548, +misc&tax)
    Local Bodyshop2 inspected: $3,271(parts $781, labor @$52/hr 39hr $2028, paint supplies $358m +misc&tax)
    Toyota Certified shop inspected: $2,838 (parts $476, labor @$56/hr 35hr $1960, paint supplies $378 +misc&tax)
    National Bodyshop1 virtual estimate from photos: $2,212 (parts $433, [email protected]$55/hr 27hr $1485, paint supplies $246, +misc&tax)
    Local Bodyshop3 inspected: $1,055 (parts $41, labor @$50/hr 16hr $800, paint supplies $202 +misc&tax)
    Local Bodyshop4 inspected: $848 (parts $0, labor @$44/hr 15hr $660, paint supplies $176 +misc&tax)

    I am taking my car to the Toyota Certified dealer body shop for the repair which is right at the middle of the pack in terms of the range but still substantially higher than the insurance estimate. In your case, since the insurance company is not involved, it will be your best interest to find a body/repair shop that is willing to fix your car at the lowest possible cost but still make the car safe to drive on the road. You may be able to find someone who can fix it less than what the first shop has indicated. Of course, if the car is not drivable, then transporting the car to a new place is going to cost you, and the shop may ask you to pay for the inspection and write up the estimate. But if it can be fixed at substantially less than the value of the car, it is more cost-effective.

    And yes, please consider keeping the collision/comprehensive part of auto insurance for your future cars. I keep no deductible collision and comprehensive coverage for all our cars even when the car is 10+ years old. It may cost me a few hundred dollars more per year, but it would be so much cheaper than buying a new car. Good luck.
     
    #19 Salamander_King, Dec 3, 2021
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2021
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  20. vvillovv

    vvillovv Senior Member

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    Those insurance / repair shop relationships are almost as bad (I've been told) as insurance / customer relationships I've experienced were being able to do most of the repairs on my own.
    Shops will say, but rarely to customers, that they only get a percentage payout of their quote from the Insurance company. I wouldn't know either way who's the problem in the relationships with Insurance Companies.
    There are other costs involved with car repairs besides the Insurance costs, and repair quality or lack there of.
    The cars title is one of them, resale is another. There are probably more I'm not aware of.
     
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