Price of GAS

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by phenoyz, Feb 9, 2012.

  1. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Unarmed traffic control officers might be a better approach.

    With shenanigans I've heard about red light cameras, I wouldn't support using more cameras.

    Supposedly, there is a speed camera in the construction zone on my commute. Traffic is still 10 to 20 mph higher than the work zone 40.

    With the various fees, NJ tickets probably are already in that $200 to $400 range, and then comes the insurance surcharges.
     
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  2. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    i haven't seen any effect on the economy from high energy prices yet. it will be interesting to watch. i bought four gallons this morning at $4.80 per
     
  3. John321

    John321 Senior Member

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    For our area, Grocery stores are where we are seeing the immediate effects of higher fuel prices.
     
  4. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    here too, but we must eat. less disposable income? more credit cards? higher interest rates?

    these things take some time. fed is watching closely
     
  5. dbstoo

    dbstoo Active Member

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    Our prices went up overnight when the calls of "inflation" and "war" and "shortages" were heard. They have fallen somewhat. This week I bought gas in Oregon for only $4.59 for regular and in the California central valley at $5.44. The highest I saw was just over $6 last month.

    California prices are higher due to taxes, but the Oregon prices went up more that California did and are dropping slower.
     
  6. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Cloud Watcher

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    How about the road to Hana (on Maui)? For us, coming back in the afternoon was worst. Lots of blind corners, one-lane bridges, stretches that are one-lane in all-but-name. Got partially run off the road twice on that return drive, on narrow/blind corners. One time was a flatbed car transport, the other time a cop. Both times we were lucky to have a relatively even grass shoulder to go off-roading (in our Chrysler 300).
     
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  7. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    I drove that road about 30 years ago, and found it somewhat familiar, somewhat comparable to some rural roads elsewhere, just longer.

    But I think Jerry was talking about normal local driving behavior, not road condition. Nothing I've experienced in the U.S. and Canada remotely compares to what I've experienced in China, Vietnam, and India.
     
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  8. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

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    You either have arrest powers or you do not.
    Seems to me that "disarm the police" might have the same charm factor as "defund the police."
    Hard Pass for me, and I would be curious as to whether the DMV-efficiency model would be better than what we have now.
    Remember....the GOAL is to enforce traffic laws. ;)

    They work where they work.
    When the butcher's bill reaches a certain tipping point (as it did with drunk driving just being largely a civil offense) and when politicians twig to the idea that driving is a PRIVELEGE and not a right, things will change.

    All of the speed cameras that I've encountered came with warning signs.
    MANY more signs than cameras.....which is sorta the whole point.

    With costs and fees $200-400 may be a bargain. I have friends behind the tinsel curtain that inform me that a relatively minor citation there can easily approach 4-figures.

    No problem with that IHMO.
    You get MORE effective dissuasion from speeding without adding to the already crippling inflation that WILL occur with a couple of fuel price doublings.
     
    #128 ETC(SS), May 13, 2022 at 6:03 PM
    Last edited: May 13, 2022 at 6:16 PM
  9. R-P

    R-P Active Member

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    Historically diesel has always been cheaper in the Netherlands (our fuel gets taxed among the 3 most expensive countries in the world).
    Theory I heard was because transport is done on diesel. With the skyrocketing prices, government reduced taxes but lowered gas more than diesel. Theory behind that: not a clue.

    So for decades anyone driving more than 20k km a year (~12k miles) had a diesel car, including my former police-car, despite paying double the roadtax of a similar gas-car. Anyone driving a diesel now is getting screwed: despite paying almost 3k$ a year in roadtax, I am banned from using the roads in several inner-cities, I'm paying way more per mile than my Prius (were both at 10ct/km for the last decade, only very slowly rising together diuring that time) and can't sell it as it is worth nothing anymore.

    And to top it all off, buying a used Tesla is neigh on impossible as they are exported in large quantities, keeping the prices way up (they depreciate less than Apple products here... a 3 year old Model X with 100k miles will still cost you more than 2/3 of a new one.)
    The fact that many have been used as company cars, giving their (>250k/year earning) drivers a tax break of some 75k$ (total over 5 years, that the average Joe with a cheaper, non-electric company car didn't get) just makes my blood boil.

    Rant over.

    They can tax fuel and cars more than they do now, I wish they would because we're not going to save the world at the pace we're impementing poluting-restricting ideas. But it would be nice if it would weigh down equally on everyone.
     
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  10. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    I read a similar argument for the reason why diesel fuel price hike is more pronounced than gasoline in the US. Historically, as far as I can remember, diesel fuel price has been always higher than gasoline in our region at any given place and time. But I have never owned a diesel car, so I can't say it was always that way. But, even if they tax more on diesel than gasoline and that reflects the cost difference between the two types of fuel, that does not explain why in recent weeks, #2 heating fuel price has sky rocketed, outpacing the increase rate of the gasoline price by a good margin.

    The #2 heating oil, AFAIK is very similar in characteristics to diesel fuel if not identical, such that it can also be used for transportation vehicles. But buying #2 heating oil and using it for a vehicle is illegal. To distinguish the difference between diesel and #2 heating oil, the latter has a red dye. The point is that #2 heating oil is not taxed like the diesel fuel that is to be used for the car. Because of this, in our region, the #2 heating oil has been always substantially less expensive than diesel fuel sold at a gas station. And for most of the years, I remember buying the #2 heating oil for our home heating, the #2 heating oil was always less expensive than the local gasoline price.

    That is no longer the case now in our region. The current average local price is $4.49/gal for gasoline and $6.34/gal for diesel. But the #2 heating oil which has been historically always cheaper than gasoline is now at an average of $5.99/gal. So, taxation alone can not explain the price disparity. There has to be something else affecting the price, such as different prices for manufacturing.
     
  11. jerrymildred

    jerrymildred Senior Member

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    The main road on Roatán is two lane in theory, but so many drivers use them both at once that it's always an adventure.
     
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  12. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    US federal taxes on gas and diesel are a flat rate of 18.4cents on gas and 24.4cents on diesel. Those haven't changed in years. On average, state taxes are higher. Some of those are percentage based, which could lead to prices climbing a little higher than elsewhere.

    Diesel used to be cheaper than gasoline in much of the US, as there was excess supply, but that started changing with ULSD. Taking the sulfur out added to costs, but the big change there was that US diesel now met European specs, who is a bigger user of diesel.

    Then COVID came along, and diesel is not immune to the same causes affecting supply problems for other goods. It takes time for refineries that reduced production during the shutdowns to get back up to speed. With the older technology in use, it can take up to a year for an US refinery to reach full output after being taken off line.

    Before the pandemic, the East Coast has lost half its refining capacity through the Recession and other causes. Then it takes over two weeks for diesel to could up the pipeline from the Gulf Coast. This is long enough for traders to have the same dilemma as in on when to buy heating oil; buying at today's prices, and piping it north could mean retail prices have dropped in that time. Less risk in selling the diesel locally or overseas.

    The situation with Russia has increased demand in Europe for US diesel. There seems to also be an increase for US diesel in Latin America.
    https://www.freightwaves.com/news/why-the-northeast-is-quietly-running-out-of-diesel
     
  13. R-P

    R-P Active Member

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    Aha, we call that 'agricultural diesel', as used by agricultural machines. Exactly the same but a third of the price (at least it was 10 years ago with stories about a Landrover floating around that had 2 tanks, supposedly one for almost 40 gallons of water, but converted by the owner to hook up to the fuel line. So when stopped and tested, the regular dieseltank would show regular diesel, but in reality he'd be driving on red diesel).

    Heating oil is not used much here, but some people do still have 100 gallon propane tanks in their garden when living in the countryside. (Almost all houses were hooked up to natural gas once we found a huge deposit back in the 50's within a few years, resulting in large prosperity, a good welfare state, but also squandering of the profits in short-sighted projects, unlike Norway which puts its profits into an investment fund for future generation. We on the other hand cannot even compensate the province we took the gas from, which has earthquakes and settling of the soil, resulting in huge cracks in houses...)
     
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  14. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    when i lived in new hampster, we had agricultural diesel as well. you had to fill out a form with your taxes for a rebate.
     
  15. Rmay635703

    Rmay635703 Senior Member

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    Not entirely accurate, fuel oil has been more than diesel back in the previous spike.

    Morgan Stanley bought the entire fuel oil supply for the eastern seaboard, aka a monopoly level stake

    we all know how that worked out

    It’s unfortunate no effort at limiting bank involvement in stocks and commodities was made and the only thing that stops the practice
    Glass Segal is still not reinstated

    Investment banks cannot realistically function in our current legal framework without 5-10 year failure cycles
     
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  16. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    If I'm remembering India right, in the core urban areas, 2 marked vehicle lanes were worth 5 lanes of actual traffic, a mixture of motor vehicles, human power, and draft animals. Each shoulder or lane divider stripe was functionally its own 'lane'. Fortunately this was divided roadway, so all most were going the same direction. But there was also a habit of never U-turning for a left-side destination across any median, but instead crossing over at a previous opportunity, then running counter, head-on into prevailing traffic for the final segment.

    While we were there, a news item came out about a study of a 40-second video clip of a 3- or 5-lane highway. They counted something over 1000 moving violations in that short clip.

    When we bicycled in Vietnam, the traffic (where the tour allowed us to pedal, which wasn't in the the worst half) was predominately moped or muscle powered (human and draft animal), not 4+ wheeled motor. The cars and trucks that were on the road, drove mostly on the center line, in both directions of non-divided highway. Right of way on that centerline was determined by vehicle size alone. Our risk of collision from a vehicle larger than a moped, from behind, was essentially zero. The risk was almost entirely from oncoming cars and small trucks passing bigger trucks camped on the centerline.

    I visited those places just once, so typical driving behaviors may have changed since. My business trips to China happened over not quite a decade's time, and behaviors there definitely did improve over time. Originally, widespread private car ownership was a fairly new thing, and drivers seemed to have the experience and behaviors and temperaments of teenagers here. By the final trip, they had 'matured' with experience to more like 20-somethings.
     
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  17. jerrymildred

    jerrymildred Senior Member

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    I have several friends who have been to India and lived to tell about it. Their videos are shocking. And LOUD. Never a second without the sound of horns blaring.
     
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  18. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    In Vietnam, it seemed that horns were a wear item, being turned on a very substantial fraction of a vehicle's operating time.
     
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  19. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

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    You'd never get it from a video. When you're in that traffic and playing by those rules, you realize how useful it is for every car near you to periodically make a polite little beep. It doesn't take long to get this extra positional awareness.
     
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  20. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

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    My backup diesel generators all use off road diesel, dyed red to differentiate it from the road-taxed stuff.
    None of our company trucks (locally) are oil-burners but many of our techs have diesel trucks since many of them are also hobby farmers and ranchers.
    I’m not aware that ANY of them have ever been tempted to use off road diesel either bought locally or filched from one of our tanks.
    Not once.
    Not ever.
    The chances of getting caught are infinitesimal but the fines are quite substantial.
    As mentioned above the federal tax on #2 diesel (and gas) do not fluctuate that much. State and local taxes sometimes will but not enough to change the prices at the pump on a weekly - or even daily basis.
    My own beloved home state of Indiana is one of the (16?) US states that have a sales tax on gas - currently 7%. That means that the higher gas is the higher the gas tax is.
    They also have an annual $0.01 per gallon inflation adjustment AND an excise tax - currently $0.32.
    Some of this occurred during my state’s dalliance with democrat governors, but Indiana also has a rich history with infrastructure defaults, and so even adult leadership is incentivized to adequately fund roads and bridges.
    The fact that they do so with three different (major) types taxes and fees and allow municipalities to ALSO levy taxes, not-taxes, and fees is merely job security for political “fact checkers.”

    Fact is?
    Gas and diesel are commodities.
    That means that at a local level a gallon of gas is a gallon of gas, regardless of where it comes from.
    Retailers are going to sell if as expensively as they can possibly get away with absenting regulation (price gouging laws, etc…)
    What stops them from selling it for a buck of gallon more than the store down the street is the fact that there IS a store down the street.
    Diesel is probably more price volatile since there is probably more commodity trading on that particular product, and it might be taxed at a slightly higher rate because most people in the US are smart enough not to drive a diesel powered vehicle unless they have to.
    The fact that some (majority male, majority teenage or teen-adjacent) are attracted to large diesel trucks illustrates this point.
    That means that the inflationary effect on the economy caused by very high diesel prices are one step further removed from SUV drivers who are fussing and cussing at the $90 that it takes to full up their Tahoes AND the Earth First crowd who are wondering why their Whole Food bill keeps rising.

    As I said before, the cure for high gas prices is high gas prices.
    Opening the (curiously named) strategic petroleum reserves, electing more energy friendly friendly administrations, buying more energy efficient vehicles, curtailing non-essential travel, and driving like a Boomer are all chicken soup type therapeutics.
     
    #140 ETC(SS), May 15, 2022 at 11:37 AM
    Last edited: May 15, 2022 at 11:48 AM
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