Prius C why not GM

Everyone has to start somewhere. GM hasn't had the technology for years like Toyota has. It costs money to create things. Prius wasn't always below $20K. It took years of people putting faith in Toyota to buy the technology, to find the problems and to have consumers invest in the improvements. The Prius C is actually older technology, just updated for today's standards. There is nothing that Toyota had to re-invent which would add to its cost.

Some day, GM and other manufacturers will have their technology on the market just like Toyota has for 15 years and the prices will come down. Then again, Toyota doesn't have to deal with American unions like GM does so may not lol.

 

There's a big difference though.

GM didn't target Volt design for the mainstream. The size of the motor & battery is overkill. The efficiency after depletion isn't any better than a tradtional car. And there's a heavy dependency on price subsidies.

The market is now interested in efficiency too, quite unlike back when Prius was new and gas was cheap.
.

 

First and formost, not much tax-payer money went into the Volt. Its true that money went into GM (though its only about as much as 2 years of subsidies for oil companies). However, the Volt is a very small fraction of the GM costs of operation/manufacturing so its allocated share of the government investment is small. Most of it is going to trucks, suvs and other cars.

As others have said, new tech costs something to make and so the price starts higher than the bottom end. I'll related it back tot he Prius so you can see it pricing in a comfortable context. The Prius introduced in the US in Aug 2001, at a base price of $19995. The average sale price of a car in 2001 was, $21,605. Sales were 6K units.

Base price of a 2011 Volt, 40280. Considering the 7500 tax credit (which is really factored into the price by most people) net price is $32,780. The 2012 was $1005 less, at a net of 31780. Average price of a car in 2011 was just over 33K.. Sales were 7500+ units.

Both the Prius introduction, and the Volt, were at about the market average price with small sales.

When introducing a new product the companies often have to balance the higher initial costs with market conditions. Setting prices just around the average is normal for any product that wants to compete on a dimension other than price (must start low) or luxury-branding (must be high). I think blew it in the first year pricing (< 40K even a little would have been better marketing even if it cost them 150K in sales revenue it would have been worth the loss to avoid the marketing firestorm it caused.), but they were not far from average and so not really that much different in how they are starting.


A "C" will never be getting the type of milage (MPG or even MPGe) that I'm getting out of the Volt. And I'm paying for wind-power so its even better on carbon. I hope the C does well and displaces lots of other low-cost gassers. But investing in new tech is not the same as bring out version 5 of a decade old technology.

 

Do you honestly believe that the engineers decide which products GM will build?

 

I agree with you 100%.

 

Do you believe your "Volt" could last 100K miles without major issue?

 

Yes. I'm expecting a lot more. The build quality is much better than the what you might think of as a "chevy". I expect 10K-15K miles per year on EV for the next 5, then 8-10K after that. I've read various reports of the battery testing and expect 150K-200K will be very likely. Battery aging, more than milage, is a slightly bigger concern. My battery may loose range but since I'll still have the gas engine it should be fine even if the range is 50% of what I'm getting now. (Also in 4-5 years I plan to semi-retire so my commute will go down).

I expect I'll use my ICE engine for about 2000-3000 miles per year (maybe more after semi-retirement as we may travel more.. maybe 5K with more road trips).

 

Are you seriously trying to compare the Volt and Prius c? The c is not benefiting from a huge government subsidy to make it even remotely affordable to a small portion of the population and it will never reduce total national fuel usage like the c will simply due to number of units sold. Furthermore the c will be a much better long term investment because battery pack failure will be much cheaper to reconcile than in the Volt. Simply put, total cost of ownership for 99% of buyers will be much much lower in the c than the Volt.

I understand you are a Volt fan and I can dig that but your arguments in favor of the Volt over most Prii, or other high mpg gassers, doesn't hold water for the majority of buyers. Sales numbers help prove the point. Not a lot of people can or want to afford a $35,000 car that survives on government assistance and is produced by an unscrupulous company that only survives due to government assistance. I would feel kind of dirty owning one and that is saying a lot considering my last 5 cars were GM models.

That being said, I am happy you are driving one and doing so with clean power when you obviously have enough disposable income to drive a gas guzzling luxury vehicle. So my hat's off to you.

 

Not really.. I think they are very different products at different points of development. I was responding to the OP about why looking at a new product being developed is not the same as an new version of a new product. If the logic the OP was applied (and you seem to be suggesting) we would never have seen a Prius at all. I think/hope the Volt could, in 10 years, be where the Prius-C is now.. launching a 4th gen low-cost version!

I see the 7500 tax credit as a way to get those of us with enough disposable income to invest along with the government in advancing EV technology. With the average volt owner making way more than the national average, I think that part of the strategy works. Lots of volt owners traded in a BMW or MN or other high-end vehicle. I might have bought the Volt without it, but with it was a a much easier decision. Supporting and investing R&D is one of the roles of government, which is why they are investing in early stages of long-term improvements not in the best short-term gain (companies do that anyhow).

 

I gotcha and I really hope the Volt will still be around in 10yrs with a lower priced version for us poor folk.

 

You can expect the other car makers to follow suit if Prius C becomes successful in US. Toyota didn't even plan correctly with their home market. Just see how many orders they have received compared to production capacity!

 

You remind me of some professors I had, but when I was in school, I learned better to not challenge professor that was grading you.. especially for classes I was paying for (no scholarship or rich parents).

So could you please give some facts on how much subsidy the oil industry gets (not tax breaks given to all businesses)...

 

Hopefully the lithium batteries will have a good life and the management in the volt does half as well as Toyota has had with their nickel hydride

 

Well your not paying me.. so go ahead and challenge. And if the prof was worth their salt, you should always be able to challenge them.
Like a good prof.. I'll let you read the background material to reach your own conclusion.


Good summary:
House Democrats Unveil $40 Billion in Cuts to Wasteful Big Oil Subsidies
With a total subsity 2002-2008 graph (shrunk here to fit):



Here are a few other articles with more details
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/01/science/earth/01subsidy.html?_r=1

http://blumenauer.house.gov/images/stories/2011/documents/EBOTS_Fact_Sheet.pdf

Obama for ending $4 bn annual subsidy to US oil companies - Economic Times


And if you prefer video to text (like many of my students)

Weekly Address: Ending Taxpayer Subsidies for Oil Companies | The White House

 

i think the o.p.s point is, and i could be wrong, gm spent a ton of money on r&d for the volt (i assume) so why not put that knowledge into some a variety of vehicles that will sell? they did the same thing with the corvette. 60 years of engineering excellence, and they never took advantage of it in their other cars to any extent. most of them were crap.

 

In addition, think of all the wasted money spent on 1st gen BAS mild hybrids and two-mode monstrosity class SUVs, neither of which sold/sell in large number and apparently are very unreliable. It seems all of the two-mode joint venture partners have pulled out (maybe except one?) and no longer have two-mode products other than GM.

 

If that is the Op's question the answer is they are!

BEV Spark is already announced
GM Officially Confirms 2013 Chevy Spark Minicar, Spark EV Electric Version
2013 Chevrolet Spark Specs and 2014 Spark EV Announced &ndash; News &ndash; Car and Driver

A PHEV Cruze is also in the works

GM Exec Confirms 2014 Chevrolet Cruze Plug-In Hybrid Model

Both are expecte to be cheaper than the volt, but are leveraging some of the R&D from the Volt (and the earlier R&D from EV1)

 

i hope they mean it!

 

because GM has poor leadership that only wanted PR from their hybrid technology, and not a profitable business. Everything else is smoke and mirrors. GM has been PR'ing better hybrid tech than Toyota since 2004. We are in 2012 and Hyundai is selling more hybrids than GM. What else is there to be said? With GM, victory is always 2 years ahead.

I think it is rather sad that in 2012, GM will sell less than 5% of hybrids that Toyota sells.