Prius Hybrid vs. VW Diesel (new tech)

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Main Forum' started by SB2, Sep 5, 2007.

  1. David Beale

    David Beale Senior Member

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    Are you sure you will be able to purchase a TDI in the US? I've heard they will not be offered in Canada in 2008. When I go to the VW websites, the Canadian one shows a 2006 TDI. The US site doesn't even display or mention a TDI.

    So is this lengthy discussion relevant?
     
  2. Ken S

    Ken S Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SB2 @ Sep 6 2007, 08:26 AM) [snapback]507863[/snapback]</div>
    Can you document this story?

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SB2 @ Sep 5 2007, 01:08 PM) [snapback]507370[/snapback]</div>
    Should you choose the VW you may want to hold off for at least one year. It's generally a good idea to let them work some of the bugs out before buying. Plus the info on the 2009 Prius may be out and make your choice more interesting.
     
  3. SB2

    SB2 New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(David Beale @ Sep 7 2007, 03:33 PM) [snapback]508698[/snapback]</div>

    You can not buy one right now - no. The new Jetta sedans will hit the lots in January, followed in short order by the Sportwagen. They will be sold as 2009 models and will all have the Bluetech diesel engines. So the NA VW site won't show you anything right now, but will in a few months. I've read posts by guys who have seen the new engine in action in a working prototype and say you can't tell the difference between it and a gasser. (see posts starting Sept. 3rd, page 27).

    http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t...356&page=27

    Is it relevant? Yes, I think so. Also, check out this article. It does not mention the Prius, but makes a good independent arguement for oil burners (a.k.a. diesel).

    http://www.edmunds.com/advice/strategies/a...34/article.html

    Right now, I'm just weighing my options and seeking out some good debate from you Prius vets out there. I like Toyota, I like both technologies. VW does have a bad image and has had problems - but quite frankly I like thier cars more (and the power that a diesel engine will give you too boot). I like Toyota's reliability and thier leading the way into hybrid technology.

    I think this thread has been pretty productive thus far. I hope it continues so we might all become better educated about all the options available to make ourselves less dependent on foriegn oil and non-renewable resources. Each tech has it's place. Every road ends at hydrogen anyway (someday)......
     
  4. LaughingMan

    LaughingMan Active Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SB2 @ Sep 7 2007, 07:33 PM) [snapback]508788[/snapback]</div>
    I disagree... not every road ends with hydrogen. Hydrogen is a pipe dream... an imaginary carrot that the auto makers and the oil industry dangle always just 20 to 25 years ahead of us so we don't pay attention to how they want to just stick with the status quo and burn more petroleum today.

    What I think we can safely say is that all roads will end in some kind of electric drive... be it pure battery-electrics, gasoline-electric hybrids, plug in hybrids, diesel-electric hybrids, or hydrogen fuel cell (which, guess what, looks a heck of a lot like a series hybrid).
     
  5. SB2

    SB2 New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(LaughingMan @ Sep 7 2007, 07:45 PM) [snapback]508798[/snapback]</div>
    I think this is the future (even if it is 10 years away). Honda will deliver this I believe. But I agree that from now thru the next 20 years, electric will dominate.

    http://www.edmunds.com/advice/alternativef...01/article.html
     
  6. SB2

    SB2 New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Ken S @ Sep 7 2007, 04:50 PM) [snapback]508732[/snapback]</div>
    Ken-

    Can I document it? Maybe - with a lot of google searching perhaps. It is something I read in a magazine (can't even remember now which one) years and years ago. And it had to do with appliances as I recall (not cars). So in a word "No.", but did it happen? Yup. On top of that, I've just ever been much of a CR fan. Like I said, I like real reviews by real people (like on Edmunds.com). Sure VW isn't perfect - but it's the only other viable option out there right now.

    I don't disagree on waiting a year, but if we decide to go this route, we won't wait. We're ready to do something now on the Prius or next Spring on the Sportwagen. These are my only two high-mpg/wagon-hatchback options that I can use as a family car.

    I'm going to test drive a Prius next week and see what I think as I've only been able to sit in one that was already sold thus far. I didn't care for the non-hieght adjustable seat, nor the non-telescoping steering wheel or the no heated seats option (or lack thereof). For all of the technological innovation in this car, they sure jacked up the creature comforts. I'm also hooked on my TSX memory seats too - what can I say, I like my seats. But we need a family friendly, fuel sipping option with some hauling capacity (lest I always have to break out the 1990 F-250 4x4 with the true 8' bed - 13mpg baby!). The TSX/Odyssey just are not cutting it. The Odyssey drinks the gas and the TSX is a touch small in the back.

    If only I could design my own car.......fuel econ of a Prius, power of a TDI engine, ergonomics of a VW, AWD of a Subie, reliabiltiy of my Honda's (or Toyota's), styling of a Audi wagon..........(sigh.....)
     
  7. Ken S

    Ken S Member

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    I've never seen such a story about CR and I did some searching. Sure, there have been some companies that have attacked their testing methodologies (Isuzu for one), but no news of a bribery scandal. Anyway, CR is good for somethings...not so great for others.

    As for "real people"reviews...I'd be careful. Nowadays companies have paid folks going to review sites and pumping their products. It has virtually turned most of the online review sites to crap...they like to call it "viral marketing". All in all it's kind of sad.

    I have a 2005 Prius and like it. A buddy has a TDI Jetta and has had pretty good luck. He gets roughly 40MPG I get about 45. He's had a number of problems with the car (A/C, Windows, Engine) over the past couple years...all that were fixed under warranty. Other than the Prius recall and a replaced driver-side armrest that suntan lotion ate through I've not had any issues.

    The Prius seats aren't great...especially on a long trip. They're not so bad that I'd consider replacing them though. A seat heater is a fairly easy third-party option to add.

    As for diesel availability. I've owned two diesels (both Mercedes) and while I did have a problem every so often finding a station it was never all that tough. From a safety standpoint it's also nice having a car where you can toss a match into the fuel only to have it go out.

    A lot of it will come down to your likes. For me I like a car that is incredibly reliable...I'd trade a lot for that. I want to push the Start button and know it's going to start. But, to others style, performance, means something. Hell, nowadays I hear people are buying the Prius because they want to announce their environmentally friendly to the world (I'd suggest a bike would do the same thing for a whole lot less :) )

    Anyway, good luck in whatever you choose.


    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SB2 @ Sep 7 2007, 11:22 PM) [snapback]508877[/snapback]</div>
     
  8. MegansPrius

    MegansPrius GoogleMeister, AKA bongokitty

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SB2 @ Sep 7 2007, 09:22 PM) [snapback]508877[/snapback]</div>
    That would need to be a lot of Google searching. I've searched all over the web. There is no documentation of Consumer Reports or their parent organization, Consumers Union, taking bribes. And they've been around since 1933.

    A "Consumer Reports Taking Bribes" story--accurate or not--would certainly have circulated online as much as something like "Prius outdoing Hummer in pollution." Instead, it doesn't even exist.
     
  9. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    I, too, googled away looking for some evidence of their taking bribes...absolutely NOTHING. I don't think the poster who said this is so much making it up as perhaps has confused something he read about another company or about the exact facts of the situation. But there is nothing at all to support such a claim and it has to be considered apocrophal at this point.
     
  10. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    that said, I don't put much credence in CR's car reviews. I don't think they spend enough time using them in real life to get good evaluations. We bough a subaru based upon glowing reviews by them. We hated it. It wasn't at all what we'd expected based on their description.

    Likewise you better be really careful going by Edmund's reviews...or Priuschat testimonials for that matter! I think the wisest choice is to evaluate all those sources and weigh the information on each one's strength's and weaknesses. CR's reviews have information that's more valuable than Edmunds in the technical/performance/MPG arena as it does the head-to-head comparisons. Edmund's you get real world satisfaction/disappointments reflected...with some bias thrown in for flavor.
     
  11. acdii

    acdii Active Member

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    If you are serious about a VW, wait at least TWO years before you buy one. The engine is new, the body is new, things will break, it will take at least two years for the bugs to be ironed out. If they are still using the same transmission, be prepared to replace it, be prepared for high maintenance costs over high miles driven. If you plan to get it next year when they first come out, make sure you insist they give you a beta testers hat! Just remember what ford owners went through with the first two years of the 6.0.
     
  12. SB2

    SB2 New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Sep 8 2007, 11:51 AM) [snapback]509061[/snapback]</div>
    I do not believe I am confused about it being CR - that said, it is possible. This has been on the range of 10-12 years ago however, and it was for appliances, not cars. I'm not trying to stir the pot, I simply used a point of reference for my not liking CR.

    I do appreciate the advice however concerning Edmunds.com. I had not heard that car companies were paying people to pump up the reviews/numbers thru what are supposed to be non-biased, real world likes and dislikes about cars. That bums me out man. Why can't companies let well enough alone? If you build a crappy product, improve it!

    And yes, we are going to evaluate the Prius based on how it works for us (not just reviews). Right now, I'm leaning that way because of a) reliability and B) availability. We're ready to do something now as opposed to later. I really do wish they would have paid more attention to the drivers seat ergonomics however. Concerning VW/diesel, I'm simply being open minded about viable options for us. I have not bought anything other than a Honda/Acura for the past 10 years, so this is all new ground for us either way.

    Thanks for all of the comments and guidance, it's been very helpful and educational. I'm headed to the dealer Tuesday evening to do a "real review" of the car. :D
     
  13. David Beale

    David Beale Senior Member

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    Look around for a rental Prius. Rent it for a week. It will save you a lot of "buyers remorse" if you decide it's not the car for you. If you do this, make sure you follow the owners guidelines, such as:
    1. Inflate the tires to at least 40 PSI front 38 rear.
    2. Learn to drive the economical way.
    3. Don't carry what you don't need in the car.
    4. Don't go on MPG for one tank. The bladder makes it hard to "estimate" fuel economy.

    The dealer may be able to rent you one. If not, try the local car rental agencies.

    Best way to ensure you are making the right decision.
     
  14. madler

    madler Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Sep 8 2007, 09:02 AM) [snapback]509068[/snapback]</div>
    I put a good bit of credence in their reliability and satisfaction surveys.
     
  15. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(madler @ Sep 8 2007, 07:27 PM) [snapback]509269[/snapback]</div>
    And those are great for cars that have been around for a few years...but not a new model.
     
  16. Ken S

    Ken S Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SB2 @ Sep 8 2007, 01:41 PM) [snapback]509124[/snapback]</div>
    <div align="left">If it's just the seat that bugs you buy a third-party Recaro or something similar that you like better. You'll lose an airbag, but you get power seats, heater and all the bells and whistles. When you consider the cost of the cars a seat isn't that big a deal if it makes you happy. There may even be a third party that can incorporate the airbag.

    Just a thought.</div>
     
  17. covelo

    covelo New Member

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    I apologize if this is not useful anymore, but I decided to buy my Prius after a three-day trip in Belgium and Holland last June where I drove a Golf (Rabbit) TDI. The car was wonderful and got excellent mileage (I have no doubt it will be able to do 60mpg on the highway when it finally gets here) and it had a great interior and some lovely accessories that the Prius doesn't have (loved those automatic passing flashers, for example), but ultimately I couldn't get over this horrible Diesel rattle. They can do whatever they try to make these cars quiet, but ultimately it's the experience of sitting at a traffic light where the Prius and the Golf TDI differed the most. The one car is blissfully quiet and the other shakes and rattles like an 18-wheeler. If you live in a climate where you can have your windows open in city traffic, that difference alone is enough to steer you to the Prius. Otherwise I am sure that both are great cars and I really hope that the small Diesel movement takes off in the U.S., especially with a good biodiesel infrastructure.
     
  18. SB2

    SB2 New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(David Beale @ Sep 8 2007, 03:27 PM) [snapback]509162[/snapback]</div>
    David,

    That is some excellent advice and honestly I had not even thought of it. Really, I'm surprised that these would be a fleet vehicle.

    The dealer I'm speaking with told me that if we get close on a deal, I'm more than welcome to take the car overnight and commute to work. Or he told me to take it for the weekend and load it up with the family to see how it "really" works for us. I was pretty impressed with that offer, since I've not even set foot in that dealership yet (which BTW, I found a dealer reference for on this website!).

    Anyhow, thanks for the tip.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Ken S @ Sep 8 2007, 11:23 PM) [snapback]509358[/snapback]</div>
    [/b][/quote]

    Ken-

    I've thought about that and if we end up with this car, I might well do that. It just seems insane to me that here I am looking at a $25k car, and I'm thinking about ripping out the factory seat and dumping another grand into it. I also have a friend who owns a custom trim shop, and he could certainly take the fabric off and add a lumber support, side bolsters and heat to make it much better. Still no up/down adjustment but that would certainly help.

    But, your point is not lost.....
     
  19. donee

    donee New Member

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    Hi SB2,

    On the seats, the lumbar support is too high and too large for me. But I may be an exception, as I am 5'10', and a mid husky (I say a mid, as I have known guys my same height that are 50 percent more husky than me - kinda Arnold built). So, its like the lumbar support is pushing the top of my body into the steering wheel, if I sit normally. The way I get around it is to suck in my gut, strech way up tall, and then hang the top half of my torso on the lumbar support. This stretches out the lower spine, and as long as I properly maintanance this position, I am fine. I have shorter legs, and they are like a perfect fit for the Prius. So, its like I have the build of a large Japanese guy (although I am of french and german descent), which is why the legs fit, but they have that lumbar support in there for the 6 foot 3 wirery guy. The compromise results in nobody having a perfect fit in the Prius.

    They really need to put in an adjustable seat! Because besides everybody being different, everybody changes from morning to night.

    Try that stretch thing, and see if it does not work for you.
     
  20. Tadashi

    Tadashi Member

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    I had a F250 6.0 when it first came out. I think I had to take it in for 3-4 times for recall stuff. Although I never noticed any problems. 3 years after it was stolen I have still been getting recall notices in the mail. lol

    There is a way to get around the Diesel rattle. I did it with my F250 and my Prius. I had the entire inside lined with Dynamate Extreme. My F250 sounded just like a sedan once I closed the doors, you could barely tell it was on. My Prius went from 70 db on the highway to 60 db. This upgrade cost me about $1k. It has also helped reduce the amount I need the A/C on or the level at which I need it.
     
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