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Project Lithium Soother Test

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Accessories and Modifications' started by AzusaPrius, Mar 16, 2024.

  1. Xeico

    Xeico Junior Member

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    What's the point of doing this? It is more than clear that in the second version there is simply a powerful balancer that discharges the battery to 16.5 V/5 3.3 V per cell? There can be no talk of any BMS there. Those who believe Jack will continue to buy and pay for the transition to the next version, those who understand at least a little understand that the product is very “crude”.
     
  2. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    I'm not sure anything about the soother board is "more than clear" yet, other than (from post #53) it's got seven little 8-pin SMD ICs on it and some various resistors and caps, and no sign of any higher-power components that could be part of a powerful balancer of any kind. I, for one, welcome whatever mudder can learn about it.
     
  3. Xeico

    Xeico Junior Member

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    Signal shooter looks like 14 comparators , and some current limiting resistors.
    One photo of the device in normal quality is enough to understand how it works.
     
  4. mudder

    mudder Member

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    The point is to prevent post after speculative post regarding the product's alleged capabilities.
    The goal then is to show the exact product shortcomings, so people can better assess the product's roadworthiness.

    I suspect the topology is the same as you have, but without actually looking at the V2.5 hardware, numerous people have claimed (correctly, but misleadingly) that "mudder was just looking at V1 hardware... V2.5 is better (for some reason)". Again, my goal is to state the facts, so people can't hide behind marketing wank.

    I also suspect there is no BMS in V2.5. In fact, I'm almost certain that is the case, but without evaluating the actual hardware I can't 100% state that (almost certain) fact.

    I would argue a different stance: "those who understand at least a little" are precisely the people I want to educate. These people seem to think NexCell packs are well engineered, and are standing behind Jack's "new and improved" statements. I want to educate these people by showing them major shortcomings in the existing design. I can't do that without the latest hardware, because it gives Jack's defenders wiggle room in that "mudder was testing old hardware".
     
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  5. mudder

    mudder Member

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    Again, I essentially agree with your statement of facts regarding how the signal soother works... but again, without an actual schematic I can't make 100% statements of fact, which opens me up to libel if anything I incorrectly deduce turns out to be wrong. Hence I want the physical hardware, so that I can factually state my claims.
     
  6. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    Good. If you find such a photo, and derive the soother's schematic from it, and post the photo and your schematic here in an annotated post where you've identified the ICs and shown how your schematic is accurately derived from the photo with component values and no unidentified bits, then maybe mudder can save paying someone a bounty for the physical hardware.

    Short of that, I'll welcome mudder's efforts to examine the thing directly.
     
  7. mudder

    mudder Member

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    Here's my reverse engineering and analysis of Project Lithium's "Signal Soother":


    tl;dw: The Signal Soother design is dangerous and should be removed immediately
     
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  8. rjparker

    rjparker Tu Humilde Sirviente

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    Nice work
     
  9. Xeico

    Xeico Junior Member

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    It looks like Jake himself is slowly but surely killing his product.
     
  10. black_jmyntrn

    black_jmyntrn Senior Member

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    my question is... why go through all of this just to say something is dangerours and not come up with a solution that solves the problem you claim is present in the signal soother?
     
  11. black_jmyntrn

    black_jmyntrn Senior Member

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    ahhhh because you will become a competitor of his...
     
  12. black_jmyntrn

    black_jmyntrn Senior Member

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    hahahah and you disabled comments on the video... why sway?

    [​IMG]
     
  13. rjparker

    rjparker Tu Humilde Sirviente

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    If you watch the earlier video which he references, he builds retrofit lithium kits with proper cell by cell bms monitoring for Hondas. He points out logic is needed along with hardware design. Simply summing 10 cells and dividing by two using op amps is not enough in a lithium design. No fuses and inadequate pc board land spacing further raises the possibility of smoke rising.
     
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  14. black_jmyntrn

    black_jmyntrn Senior Member

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    this guy plans to compete with NexCell... he plans to sell products which is why he's not "helping" solve the issue he is claiming is present... I've said it since the beginning... why is no one helping solve the issues they are claiming are present... why are folks trying to tear down NextCell and the work that's been done?
    26:59 he says he does care... about his pockets and not the community.

    You all prance around here like your knowledge cant be challenged and that you are about community yet, most of you jump on bandwagons that are filled with negativity and some sort of resentment as far as I can tell... versus attempting to do good with your voice/experience and assist those trying to make this platform more than its been.

    also.. when he starts showing his laptop screen... if he is using open source to generate the color-coded spreadsheet and the color coding is off... who to say the rest of the open source code isn't off and displaying in accurate information? I always use open source and if the color coding is off... I wouldn't trust anything else in that script!

    id be willing to test is theory about blowing something after putting the car in ready with the disconnect disconnected... I love how the internet lets people just say their thoughts without anything to back up what they say. id be willing to bet nothing blows... hahahaha some chicken scratch on paper, open source code that cant even display the proper colors and his words to say something is unsafe... well prove what you say is true is what I say! because when I test his theory and nothing blows, his credibility is shot and the day he spent making this video is really wasted. why not let the comment section be open bud?
     
    #74 black_jmyntrn, Jun 11, 2024
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2024
  15. rjparker

    rjparker Tu Humilde Sirviente

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    Sorry but you are out of your depth.
     
  16. black_jmyntrn

    black_jmyntrn Senior Member

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  17. mudder

    mudder Member

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    Here's my open source lithium conversion solution for the G1 Honda Insight. Note that that 'LiBCM' PCB I designed actually has all the capabilities required to prototype a safe BMS solution for the G3 Prius, too... but that's only for my own use for now; before I offer it for sale, I'll end up redesigning the PCB to make it fit the Prius' different mechanical constraints. Feel free to follow along as I develop this Prius-specific derivative product.

    In this video, I came right out and said I was going to become a competitor. Not hiding anything.

    Note that my Prius-specific BMS product ('LiBSU') will technically work with Jack's existing NexCell modules, although I don't intend to commercialize that due to LFP's low energy density; once you have a true BMS, NMC cells (used in most electric vehicles) are actually safe to use. Existing NexCell customers that want to install LiBSU would be able to do so with a custom wire harness (that I don't intend to sell).

    Put another way, the product I'm developing (i.e. a replacement Battery Support Unit) isn't a direct competitor to Jack's NexCell traction battery replacement (which doesn't replace the BSU). However, since I intend to use an NMC lithium pack with much higher energy density, IMO there really wouldn't be any reason for new lithium conversions to use NexCell modules.

    I disable comments on my videos by default. Youtube's comment system is terrible. I'd much rather discuss issues in forums. However, just for you I've turned comments on for this video. Can't wait to see how bad they are!
     
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  18. mudder

    mudder Member

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    I would love to discuss the technical merits regarding even a single issue I'm "claiming is present" that you disagree with. Please pick any claim I've made that you disagree with and we can discuss it as much as you'd like.

    My engineering analysis is intended to help inform the community when a product offered for sale is dangerous. Project Lithium's NexCell lithium conversion system is dangerous. Project Lithium's Signal Soother design is dangerous.

    On a technical side: Because Project Lithium's entire lithium IP portfolio is dangerous.
    On a personal side: I have considerable, mounting evidence that Jack uses deceit, half-truths, libelous falsehoods, and outright lies when representing his NexCell product's capabilities. In short, I do not trust Jack, and I cannot work with someone I don't trust.

    If I cared about the money, my designs wouldn't be open source. For example, here are all the design files required for anyone to reproduce the LiBCM product I sell for the G1 Honda Insight. To date, I know of at least two other people who have used those files to create identical products to the ones I offer for sale.

    Reminder: Jack originally approached me to ask for my help designing a safe BMS for his NexCell modules. Read this thread for a refresher on how my interaction with Jack went.

    Entirely incorrect. I lay out my knowledge in hopes that people will challenge the merits... that's how the scientific community works. I invite anyone with factual counterpoints to challenge my statements, so we can discuss the merits. Note: this is not what you're doing for the most part.

    The color coding is a visual aide only... I created it specifically for the video, to help people understand what's happening. It is a mathematical representation of the physical Signal Soother circuit. Anyone else with the requisite EE experience could reproduce my findings. Again, that's how science works. Feel free to review the actual numbers (shown on the screen in the video).

    I commend you for attempting to challenge something factual I've said in the video, but IMO you are really grasping at straws here. If you'd like, I can send you the Signal Soother and you can reproduce my findings... hard to argue with facts, but here we are.

    Science. Science backs me up. And experience. The great thing about understanding how the world works conceptually, is that you don't always need to test every theory out to know what's going to happen.

    But if you'd like, I will put this Signal Soother back together so we can test it. There are two options (you choose):
    -I can either test my theory out in a lab setting (i.e. not in a Prius, since I don't own one), or;
    -I can send the Signal Soother to you for testing in your car (or you can procure your own if you don't trust me).

    There's a lot of emotion coming through in your quote... emotions aren't facts, but to the extend that we have factual disagreements, I feel I've answered the numerous topics you've conveyed previously in my last couple posts. If you don't believe that's the case, please state factual counterpoints to my claims.
     
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  19. mudder

    mudder Member

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    Reframing your statement, the bandwagon you're riding is that @jacktheripper's knowledge can't be challenged.

    If you are correct - and Jack's products are safe - then Jack is the person who benefits the most from defending his products publicly. And yet Jack hasn't made even a single public post here in three months... Jack, I'm all ears if you want to counter my claims. The floor is yours.
    In b4 "Jack is busy".

    Instead, Jack is choosing to privately answer questions, so that he can control the narrative. And from what I've seen and heard regarding these private conversations, Jack is digging a deeper hole by spreading libelous falsehoods. To whit, my last conversation with Jack was a warning that I will not hesitate to sue him if he continues to disparage my analysis in private. I am of course keeping records of all the communications people send me, so that I can SLAPP him down if he decides to take me to court.
     
    #79 mudder, Jun 11, 2024
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2024
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  20. AzusaPrius

    AzusaPrius Senior Member

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    @mudder

    I think it would be fair and keeping it truthful by stating who sent you the soother firstly.

    Second it would be great if you can explain the dangers of the soother here in the forums like you said you like to do.

    Third I have been using the soother since I got it and it is still installed as I type.

    I do not really want to give you any views on your channel because you come off as some one who is talking crap about a product for the prius when you do not even have a product for the same car.

    No one cares about your honda adventures and it seems that you are trying to find out how to build one for the prius.

    Same ol videos with chicken scratched doodle on papers and fast talk and moving hands, show your face like Jack does.

    Today the outside temp was 100F in my area and no dangers happening here.

    Air intake temp of 127F so you with all that hot weather you know the HV battery can be hot and if there were any dangers, Im sure they would have shown up by now.

    No smoke, no fires. No problems

    You say the exact dangers here in my thread and I will take pictures of my lithium battery with soother installed tomorrow.

    I did not use the Dr. Prius app to help with the fan override or even look at the live data.

    The HV fan never turned on to max speeds
    Just turned on with normal speed, so that alone says nothing was very hot.

    Im waiting for your reply...

    20240611_173409.jpeg 20240611_173441.jpeg
     
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