Putting the PHV through it's paces in the hot desert... (Rick's turn for the PHV)

Discussion in 'Gen 1 Prius Plug-in 2012-2015' started by HTMLSpinnr, Aug 14, 2010.

  1. HTMLSpinnr

    HTMLSpinnr Super Moderator
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    I prefer to think in overall consumption.

    Speaking of which, end of day stats (after a lunch outing and a detour to the in-laws on the way home):

    Distance: 53.0 miles
    Balance: 21% EV, 79% HV
    Overall MPG: 67.7mpg
    Overall average speed: 31mph

    Random notes:

    * In Eco, the PHEV HVAC system is more "willing" to use fresh air. This morning, I had the A/C set to 78°F and the outside ambient was 97°F. I caught a sudden wiff of "farm smells" on my way end. Looked down, and the air selector had automatically moved to Fresh. I would not have seen that in my car.
    * Today was particularly humid on top of the heat. Temps were 108°F on the way home, and anything but dry. This, and my more "typical" driving style probably contributed to the lower overall numbers. The day also ended with a ~1 mile short trip from the in-laws, including a "punch-it" dart across a busy intersection, 3 kids in the car, and A/C that was battling heat and humidity.
    * I did see level cruising instantaneous MPGs at 45-50mph well above 100mpg (120ish). The "graph" agreed as it was pegged to 100mpg. Engine was loping along in the low 1000's of RPMs. I'm going to pay particular attention to see if this is reproducible in my Prius.
     
  2. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    I didn't think of that. It would still be PZEV, but might not get the same AT-PZEV credits for a ER PHEV. Which brings up a big question. Could they give the phv prius to us with a good ev control button in non-CARB states? It seems to not make any sense to remove this control from the driver.
     
  3. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    I think you misunderstood him.

    Tobbe wanted to save the EV miles to use it after the highway exit, to get infinite MPG. If he used the battery on the highway with the gas engine running, you'll get 233 MPG at 70 MPH (I assume on a level highway).

    That's pretty good trade off. This allows anyone to "just drive it" without worry about managing the EV range usage.
     
  4. TheForce

    TheForce Ron Paul 2012

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    I would like to comment about when EV should be use.

    I believe the best use of the charge in the batteries is used out on the highway if you have a lot of highway driving. You dont want to be doing all EV on the highway but more of a blended mode to get about 150MPG. Something like 30A of assist would do while not draining the batteries too fast. Then once your in the city you can pulse and glide to get 100+MPG. The only way this can work is if you can control when to use the charge. something I hope Toyota will do.

    I remember reading some presentations from Argon National Laboratory that basically say the same thing. The best use of the charge thats in the batteries would be in blended mode out on the highway. I would post the link to the document if I knew where it was but there are a bunch of them on their site and I dont feel like skimming through them to find it. I do know its in one of their documents related to the testing of the kits that are available now for the gen2 Prius. More specifically the Hymotion system.

    Just remember the Prius shines in city driving but needs a little help out on the highway to get big numbers.
     
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  5. HTMLSpinnr

    HTMLSpinnr Super Moderator
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    Trying something a bit different for today's overall driving. My daughter had an extra early morning, so I ended up taking her to school, then coming home to plug-in again. 4.6 mile RT, 8.8 miles remaining, and will take 1.3 hours to recharge. 90°F ambient, and I didn't realize I tripped the car out of Eco mode. I'm going to keep the trip and EV/HV going for today's total.
     
  6. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    What was the EV:HV ratio?
     
  7. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    Rick, can you check if you can find out the kind of cells the PHV Prius is using? Cylindrical or Prismatic?

    I am pretty sure they are using 420 laptop battery cells. The clue is from the Panasonic Lithium Storage. It has 140 cells, 7 in series and 20 in parallel. 25.2 Volt with 58 Ah. This indicates it is using 2.9Ah cells.

    Panasonic just announced higher capacity 3.4 Ah cells to mass produce in 2012. That's about when PHV Prius is coming out. If we plug 3.4 Ah cells in, the pack would have 1.7 kWh. Three of them would make up 5.1 kWh. That's pretty much the total capacity of the PHV Prius with 3 packs.

    The current 2.9 Ah cells are selling for $12 per cells. 420 of them would come out to $5k. The 1.31 kWh NiMH HV pack retails for $2,588.67. It appears Lithium is less expensive per kWh, especially if you throw in the $2,917 plugin tax credit.
     
  8. ken1784

    ken1784 SuperMID designer

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    They are Prismatic cells.
    Prius Plug-in battery cell information (Japanese only)
    capacity: 5Ah
    voltage: 3.6V
    energy density: 73Wh/kg
    volume density: 103Wh/L
    weight: 245g
    size: 110mm×14mm×112mm

    Prius PHV uses them as 96 cells in series X 3 parallel = total 288 cells.

    Also, please refer to my pevious post.

    [email protected]

    [​IMG]
     
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  9. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Nice that works out to only 71kg (0.245kgx288cells) for the cells leaving 89kg (160-71) for the rest of the structure and electronics of the pack. It seems like the non-battery part of the pack can lose a lot of weight when the phv-prius hits production.
     
  10. linuxpenguin

    linuxpenguin Active Member

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    Interesting...any idea what chemistry they are? I assume Lithium Ion Polymer based on the nominal voltage...

    Andrew
     
  11. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Reality is, the mainstream market is the "JUST DRIVE IT" crowd.

    An override option would be nice as a special high-end model, but that's a niche perspective. Joe average isn't going to crunch the numbers to squeeze out the greatest return. They'll just plug & deplete. Engineering is a balance of compromises, especially when it comes to affordability. KISS is the first model planned to be offered.
    .
     
  12. ksstathead

    ksstathead Active Member

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    Would prefer defaults for just drive it mainstream to be sure, but override akin to gen2/3 EV buttons (gen3 US model) to control EV vs HV. TheForce wants to save EV for freeway. I think some driving patterns favor avoiding multiple warmups in city driving. I may be wrong on that. We should both have the choice; providing that choice should be a relative tweak to the system in the PHV. Not trivial, but still...

    Instead, I half expect the rest of the world to have such a choice, but N America to be forced from choice by CARB rules. Deja vu.
     
  13. HTMLSpinnr

    HTMLSpinnr Super Moderator
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    Ratio? For the first trip, 100% EV for 4.6 miles. I then plugg-ed in for a 1.3 hour "top-off".

    Total trip to work, including the previous EV trip:
    * 27 miles
    * 56% EV, 44% HV.
    * EV range ended at 16 miles even, making only 11.4 miles EV. I completed the EV range during the on-ramp to the freeway.
    * Unfortunately, I did trip the ICE during the first mile in a somewhat aggressive unprotected left, however that saved me from the 1.6 mile "warm-up".
    * I noted that the warm-up ends when coolant is 140˚F. The temp was 128˚F by the onramp. Ambient temp was 102˚F.
    * Scangauge MPG was 115mpg as I pulled in, but after I parked, it dropped to 114mpg w/o the ICE running (a bit fishy on how it's calculating this). Note - this is ONLY for the trip from home after the 2nd plug-in, and doesn't account for 4.6 miles of "infinite" MPG. Assuming I burned 0.195 gallons of gas (22.4/115 = n, 27/n = mpg), that makes 138.6 MPG for the morning.

    This shows if you have time, plugging in can increase your EV%, but overall didn't do much for my "to work" MPG, partially because it caused me to leave later when it was hotter out. Had I known better, I would have
     
  14. HTMLSpinnr

    HTMLSpinnr Super Moderator
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    I don't know the precise chemistry, but I believe they are *NOT* Lithium Polymer due to the perceived "dangers" they carry.

    We also know that it is unlikely that Toyota will continue the Main + 2 sub architecture, but that the main + sub was adopted to more easily "tack on" to the existing architecture w/o completely redesigning. I would imagine either one larger pack, or a main + 1 larger sub. However - if Toyota were to adopt a modular, upgradeable range feature, adding additional subs would allow such flexibility.
     
  15. thbjr

    thbjr Member

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    Rick, I can't believe you arn't going to load the wife and kids up for a refreshing day/evening trip up to Sunset Point. They would never know that it was a anything other than an opportunity to get out of this 113 degree heat. Shucks, I'll bet it's only around 98 up at Sunset point. Then after eating some PB&J's, chips and cold soda..., they would never know about all the knowledge you'd be gaining coming back down that hill into the Valley:rolleyes:
    On another note, I've enjoyed reading your post. Hope you're enjoying the car, and if you're driving in the area of Bell and I17, let me know, I'd love to see the car.
    Tom
     
  16. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    We know its not lithium polymer, but I don't think the dangers are greater. LG and Hyundai seem to be saying Lithium polymer is actually safer. I'm not sure if Toyota has announced chemistry, but it won't necessarily be the same on the production phv as it is on these test systems.

    A hybrid + ev battery makes sense from a battery point of view. The best chemistry for a battery that is continually charged and discharged is likely different than one charged and discharged once a day.
     
  17. linuxpenguin

    linuxpenguin Active Member

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    The nominal voltage rules out iron phosphate (LiFEPO4) which would have been the likely candidate. Do we know for certain it's not Lithium Polymer if they haven't released what chemistry it actually is? The 3.6v nominal voltage fits the curve pretty closely. Also, at 10Ahr the internal resistance would be through the roof if it was something like iron phosphate. Guess we'll just have to wait and see what it is when it's released.

    Andrew
     
  18. HTMLSpinnr

    HTMLSpinnr Super Moderator
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    Despite the different chemistry for different purposes, whatever they're using does "work better" in the PHV, delivering better hybrid MPG despite the heavier weight.

    Today's driving: Adding to the phenomenal effort from this morning, I added a typical 4 mile lunch short trip which barely gets the engine to operating temp (no pre-charge), but ambient @ 113°F (coolant started at 128°F). Trip home was my "normal route" at 106°F ambient using my more typical "keep up with traffic" style. Monsoon storm (the kind that destroys Palo Verde trees) blew through, dropping temps into the 90s before we went out to dinner as a family (no pre-charge), came back to drop kids off, then ran to the store (short trip, but ICE was near operating temp).

    Stats for the day:

    61.6 miles for the day.
    67.6mpg overall.
    28mph average.
    24% EV, 76% HV.

    While out at the store, I added gas to the car. Took 5.12 gallons, but I know it didn't arrive completely full.

    Trip B stats (since I received the car):
    277.1 miles
    70.9 mpg
    29mph average

    I did a decent amount (15+ miles between two charges) of EV driving Saturday which helped to bolster the overall figure.

    I plan to take the kids to school and finally give my wife an EV ride (today was the first time she rode in it, but not in full EV). She hasn't been awake or well enough to enjoy it previously. After that, I'll park it on the curb where it'll await it's driver to take it back to CA. The kids will miss "Beauty Electra" - I know I will. Kinda makes it hard to look at my 2010 - knowing it could do more. Despite that, unless I could get a reliable plug solution at work, I couldn't justify any sort of conversion for my car.
     
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  19. HTMLSpinnr

    HTMLSpinnr Super Moderator
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    Took our last trip this morning - 100% EV for 9.4 miles - I gave it a 10-15 min top-off between trips that added maybe 1 mile. In the end, I still had 4-5 miles of EV range remaining, and a full tank of gas.

    End stats:

    73.4mpg over 287.6 miles (that's 3.92 gallons), 28mph average. This is my "real world" blend of "just drive it" and eco-common-sense driving (braking early, moderate acceleration, keeping up w/ traffic that's 5-10mph over on rural streets). Environment is hot and/or humid days w/ a reasonable A/C setting (78˚F) in Eco mode. Not a whole lot of elevation change between destinations (2-300ft at most over 23 miles).

    Final thoughts:


    This would be a fantastic car for my wife who does mostly "around town" driving, and only averages in the mid 30mpg range in our 2004 (she'll sit and wait for the kids at the bus stop w/ the A/C running). This type of car could easily double or triple her fuel economy, removing the ICE burden for these trips. Problem is, we need it in a car larger than the Prius to double as a long-trip vehicle so that I can maintain the Prius or similar smaller car as my daily driver. I predict a plug-in hybrid version of a mini-van is quite a ways out, especially since a regular hybrid mini-van has yet to hit US shores. If costs were ever reasonable, a plug-in Mini-van would save quite a bit of fuel if it had reasonable range for the average "grocery run" or "take the kids to school and back" type of trip. Doing so on 15-20¢ of electricity (charging @ night or off-peak) makes for a quicker cost recoup.

    For my situation, it definitely improved my overall fuel economy by at least 25mpg. I attribute that to the improved hybrid-only economy that the design changes offer and the ability to plug-in for the morning trip. I believe that number would be higher if I could plug-in at work as well. That said, I don't think the pricing numbers would make sense for a PHV with this range in my use case. The EV range is typically fully consumed by the time I make it to the freeway, after which point, the batteries are "dead" weight. If plugging in at work were an option, that could change somewhat.

    Now that I'm back in my current 2010 Prius, I do put a bit more thought into it's performance. Being lighter, it's quicker to respond to the go pedal. I do miss the quicker ratio steering from the PHV. I can say I'm glad to have my solar roof back, as well as the premium audio. Most of all, I'm glad I have my Bluetooth hands-free phone back. I'm sure the final PHV will get most of these features as well as they're "musts" for my (and many others') commuter vehicle.

    Having the PHV was a good excuse to quickly acquire a ScanGauge II, which will no doubt, come in handy for my own car. It was slightly disappointing (and curious all the same) that the XGAUGEs are either different or unavailable for the most interesting battery stats (nobody's fault, it's a long-term work in progress). Some gauges that would be fun to figure out would include amps, SOC for each pack, battery voltage, etc. Then again, only AMPs are available for the 2010, so there wouldn't be a whole lot to compare.

    All in all - the PHV will prove massive gains for a specific type of driver who has the ability to plug in at home (and ideally at work), provided Toyota can maintain a good "range to price" value.
     
  20. Airbalancer

    Airbalancer Active Member

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    Problem is, we need it in a car larger than the Prius to double as a long-trip vehicle so that I can maintain the Prius or similar smaller car as my daily driver.

    How many kids?
    If you have only 2 you probably carry much stuff on your trips
    I did over 3600 km trip with 4 adults and no one complained about room. my 30 year old daughters complained about everything else( LOOK AT THAT BREW PUB WE WANT TO STOP), and I thought they were bad when they were 10:D
    I am over 6-1 and I did not have change my seat to give more to the person in the back move room
     
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