Question of EV mode in PHEV conversion

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(paulccullen @ Dec 10 2006, 11:23 AM) [snapback]360049[/snapback]</div>

No, you still have a <34 MPH limit for full EV. However with your PHEV second battery you will increase your over all KWH so you can EV longer. If you travel over 34 MHP you will have more of an assist so until you use up the second pack you'll get about 100 mpg. Once you use up your second pack you will just go back to normal. It is best to size the PHEV pack to be just what you use in a normal day. In my case 30 miles each day. However that is if you can afford it. For now I will start with a 10 mile pack and move up later. Most of my driving will be at highway speeds so you double the EV only range to figure I should have 20 miles each day at 100 MPG and the other 10 would be at the normal 50 mpg.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(paulccullen @ Dec 10 2006, 11:23 AM) [snapback]360049[/snapback]</div>

The problem is with the mechanical synergy drive system. The power split devise is designed so that both the ICE and the motors work together otherwise one side or the other have to turn at very high speeds. Your motor is rated to push the Prius above 80 mph, but the PSD prevents that. Is there a way around that? Not that I have seen.
Important note: Battery packs are considered bad once they can only hold 80% of the power of when they were new. Lead Acid batteries for this conversion hit that point at about two years. At a cost of $900.00 for the pack and you saving about $300 to $400 on gas over that time, you will be in the hole for a few hundred bucks when you have to replace them. You will never see a finical return on your investment unless the battery life increases or the price comes down. Of course you could just keep using the same batteries for a while since they still would have 80% capacity. A point to remember, thumbing you nose as foreign oil is priceless.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(paulccullen @ Dec 10 2006, 01:04 PM) [snapback]360077[/snapback]</div>

Wait no more. We are just waiting for pricing and availability. These are what we have been waiting for.
one:
http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?vid=c860...934330b.1249609
Two;
http://www.altairnano.com/documents/Altair...resentation.pdf

Now that you are impressed, and I know you are... I have tried to get Altairnano to work with me on getting these batteries so I could show what a PHEV with these batteries could do, but they never contacted me back as of yet. If I could get a full set for my Prius PHEV I would end up with a PHEV80 to PHEV100 or at highway speeds 160 to 200 mile range at 100+mpg.

Like I said, these are what we have been waiting for. After these come out, regular LI-Ion won’t cost near as much as everyone will want these instead. 12 year life, no explosions, they work in hot and cold temps. In the future look for cheaper conversions that are more simple to do.

 

As Cheap points out, you do have the same mechanical limitations, and many of the electonic ones as well. EV mode with a bigger battery IS different than EV mode with the stock battery, however. You can demonstrate this difference to yourself by charging the battery to full. All green - as far as the car will let you charge. You need a nice long down-hill for this. Now that the car is full, accelerate briskly, and drive up to freeway speeds. You'll notice that the battery is used WAY the heck more than normal. The car will let the battery propel the car far more often, and at higher currents until you've taken the "top" off the charge. With a PHEV conversion, you enjoy that "full charge" feeling for quite some time.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Cheap! @ Dec 10 2006, 10:44 AM) [snapback]360068[/snapback]</div>

My hope is that the folks doing this - on the bleeding edge - are not doing it for financial gain. There are far more important investments that we can make, and for some, this may be one of them.

 

Do you think that maybe we should see how many people we could find that want to do a conversion with Altairnano batteries so we could pool together to make a proposal? I could forward that on to my contact as well. Maybe with more people interested, we could get a quicker response?

What do you think?

 

elecblue has also done and completed a conversion of his Prius. He used a more exotic battery charger / inverter, and fewer batteries. His conversion is explained at http://www.eaa-phev.org/wiki/GrayPerl. Apparently mrbigh has also completed a conversion, but I haven't heard the details yet.

Also, the batteries will not necessarily have to be replaced in two years. That is somehow getting stated as a fact, but it really depends on the batteries. The calcars team used relatively cheap batteries to experiment on, and they apparently went bad after a couple of years or maybe even less time. The better batteries will be more expensive, but in the long run are worth it. For about $1700 you might expect to see five years of battery life. For the PbA batteries you really need to limit the discharge to 30% too (that's 70% remaining), otherwise the lifespan of the battery is shortened. That is what is so upsetting about PbA batteries, you're carrying around a huge amount of Pb just so the batteries can have a reasonable lifetime. It is also similar with NiCd batteries, where you might get 100,000 cycles at 15% discharge but only 2000 cycles at 80% discharge.

I would be interested in the Altairnano batteries too, but it is unknown when they would be available, how much they would cost, or what their projected lifespan would be. If their batteries are as great as they say they are, I think a lot of people would be interested in converting their Prius.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(sub3marathonman @ Dec 10 2006, 10:35 PM) [snapback]360247[/snapback]</div>

Life span for the Nanosafe batteries have been tested to 10 or 12 years in charge cycles. Now whether or not the Titanate material will break down in 7 years is unknown.
You can buy 28 modules or a pack of about 35kwh for your conversion for $45,000. Of course that will include a truck you would have to throw away. However, the batteries by them self should be a good deal less. We should know in January or February at the latest because of page 21 in this presentation.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Cheap! @ Dec 10 2006, 09:01 PM) [snapback]360254[/snapback]</div>

This isn't a given, actually.

1. As far as I know, none of these batteries has ever been sold.
2. The complete vehicle with batteries in place is worth $200k just in the ZEV credits that are paid by the car makers that are NOT making ZEVs. Charging $45k for the whole truck means that the Phoenix is making $245k - not $45k on each truck it sells. Selling just the batteries doesn't get that free money, so the batteries by themselves could cost far more than the truck?

I lost some folks, didn't I?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Dec 11 2006, 03:30 AM) [snapback]360269[/snapback]</div>

Well, actually then they are getting $245K - not making $245k on each truck it sells. They have to buy the materials and put the truck together, so what they make will be much less than $245K. Also, I didn't think the auto makers were required to make any ZEVs, so I don't understand why they would need to buy any credits.

The batteries are rumored to cost about $12K for the 35kWh.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(sub3marathonman @ Dec 11 2006, 04:41 AM) [snapback]360302[/snapback]</div>

I guess it depends on the definition of "getting." They are receiving $245k at some point in the transaction - thus my use of the word "getting." Their profit is obviously lower than that. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

There is simply no way that I can imagine that 35kWh of these batteries will cost as little as $12k. I'd love to be proven wrong on this. If they're that cheap, it will literally change EVERYTHING over night. Rumors are worth no more than product that still has not been commercialized.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Cheap! @ Dec 10 2006, 11:01 PM) [snapback]360254[/snapback]</div>

Throw away? Are you mad? Just replace the truck's batteries with PbA and sell it on eBay.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Silver Phoenix @ Dec 12 2006, 12:29 PM) [snapback]360995[/snapback]</div>

I like the way you think!