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Recent 'radio silence'

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by bwilson4web, Jul 11, 2023.

  1. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    I have been buying a 2017 BMW i3-REx and reduced postings (i.e., 'radio silence'.) Now that the wire payment is being 'telegraphed' to the seller, I can explain.

    Background, a 2014 BMW i3-REx was my EV gateway drug. This serial-hybrid is an electric car that carries an efficient, built-in, generator that works even at 70 mph. Parallel-hybrids have a mechanical transmission connecting the ICE to the drive wheels like the 2017 Prius Prime. One has just a generator and the other a transmission and generator.

    I am buying (payment sent, bought?) a used, 2017 BMW i3-REx to replace the original 2014 BMW:
    • $15,440 versus $14,500 repurchase price
    • 27 kWh battery versus 18 kWh
    • 7th of 8 year battery warranty versus expired battery warranty
    • 54,000 miles versus ~68,000 mi
    • new tires, dealer prep versus 'time to replace' tires
    • both have 2" receiver hitch
    • pay State purchase taxes and fees and 'hippy tax' registration
    An Internet search found about half a dozen, 2017-2018 BMW i3-REx for various higher prices and hundreds of miles way. This one was the least expensive, $15,440 and 850 miles, 15 hours drive, ~$78.60 away. I just got back from inspecting and signing the papers:
    upload_2023-7-11_1-0-8.png
    • All windows tinted black
    • Has 2" receiver hitch
    • Missing portable charger and tire 'goop' kit
    The battery was near zero but had enough charge to start the REx. So after two hours on a 6.2 kW charger:
    upload_2023-7-11_1-3-24.png
    • 24 mi indicated EV range at just under 25% SOC, 24%(?)
      • ~100 mi EV range - 24 mi / 24%
      • 86% battery degradation - 100 mi / 116 mi per Wiki
    • Battery warranty 8 years to 70%
      • one year left on warranty
      • battery meets my expectations and REx works
    Once the seller reports they want to give me the keys and paper work, I'll find 'cheap' transportation and drive back. In addition to an overnight bag, I will bring a dual-voltage, 120-240 VAC, settable current, 8, 12, 30 amp, portable charger along with a NEMA 5-15 to NEMA 14-50 AC adapter. I'll also bring (or buy there) 12 V, air pump and sticky string tire plug kit.

    From Huntsville, I have these options:
    • cheap flight - $187
    • one way rental car - $192
      • 34 gal = 850 mi / 25 MPG
      • $90 rental one-way plus $102 gas ($3/gal)
    Questions?

    Bob Wilson
     
  2. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    seems like a good price, do they depreciate faster than tesla?

    what might someone have paid new?
     
  3. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Is 6.6kW or 10kW the max rate of charge
    .
     
  4. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    New, $52-54,000. BMW also had an affordable lease program.

    BMW never made a serious effort to reduce the I3 cost to produce. A different CEO came in and he chased off the original engneers and sold off the carbon fiber plant making the body material. He then put the next product, the i8, under an exceptionally poor engineering team. I spontaneously laughed when I saw the i8 ... to the disappointment of the local BMW sales critters.

    There are some 'low hanging fruit' that I hope to test with my new I3: (1) cooled exhaust recirculation and; (2) engine coolant cabin heater. I would also like to make the passenger seat become a recliner for 'hotel BMW.'

    Bob Wilson
     
    #4 bwilson4web, Jul 12, 2023
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2023
    bisco and hill like this.
  5. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    The 'full' carbon fiber body of the i3 was a solution to high battery prices. Cut the weight in order to get the most out of the battery. Battery prices came down though. So the cost of the CF became a bigger portion of the car's cost. Using heavier materials will hurt EV range, but allow a lower price point.

    BMW ditching large use of carbon fiber in a lower price segment is no different than Tesla not using an aluminum body for the Model 3 and Y.
     
  6. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Weight remains a critical aspect for efficient EVs which is where traditional manufacturer engineering fails. So their EVs are heavy compared to Teslas but more due to poor design practices. But even carbon fiber and bonding plastics have come down in cost and improved performance (not including the recent submersible.)

    Source: https://www.infosys.com/engineering-services/white-papers/documents/carbon-composites-cost-effective.pdf

    upload_2023-7-12_9-16-12.png

    The first Atlas rockets were made from stainless steel, effectively a metal balloon. Tesla's Starship is also stainless steel. But BMW did not redesign using stainless steel but went with traditional, automotive grade steel and overweight construction.

    Bob Wilson
     
  7. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Source: AD #3603 – Ouch! Audi Could Buy Chinese EV Platform; EV Startup NIO in Deep Trouble; One-Off Ferrari is Stunning – Autoline Daily

    GIGACASTING THREATEN STEEL, TOOL & DIE INDUSTRIES
    Aluminum gigacastings are a threat to the steel industry. That’s according to Japan’s second largest steel producer, a company called JFE. It says that as more automakers use gigacastings, demand for steel will go down. Tesla pioneered the use of big aluminum castings as part of the body structure of a car, which eliminated the need for 140 steel stampings in the Model Y. Toyota and General Motors are also going to use big aluminum castings in upcoming EVs. Harbour Reports also points out that the tool and die industry is under threat from gigacastings since they eliminate so many steel stamping dies.

    Bob Wilson
     
  8. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    and demand for aluminium will go up?
     
  9. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    It does recycle relatively/easily
    .
     
    bisco likes this.
  10. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    A small amount, about one day of Pepsi soda pop cans.

    Bob Wilson
     
  11. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Weight is an important factor to efficiency of all cars.
    Price is important for selling them while staying in business.

    While CF costs have come down, in part do to BMW's work, that paper's prediction for CF cost was off.
    "The price of carbon fibres can vary depending upon the raw material used. For polyacrylonitrile(PAN)-based carbon fibre, the cost of PAN raw silk is 11.11 USD/kg, which accounts for 51% of the production cost, followed by carbonization and pre-oxidation processes which cost around 5.12 USD/kg and 3.40 USD/kg respectively." (2022)
    https://www.procurementresource.com/resource-center/carbon-fibre-price-trends

    For a part of the same size and shape, a CF part will be stronger than aluminum while weighing half as much. $9.82 per kg of aluminum replaced. Today aluminum is trading at $2.15 a kg. A specific alloy for automotive use might cost more, but it still has a price advantage.
    https://smicomposites.com/aluminum-vs-carbon-fiber-what-are-the-differences/

    If the price for batteries had remained high as BMW thought when developing the i3, the added cost of using CF would have been covered by the ability to use less battery. But battery prices came down, and consumers wanted 200+ mile BEVs. The additional weight of using heavier materials wasn't a burden along side the weight of a bigger battery for longer range.
    Are you actually talking about the i8? That uses the same construction as the i3.

    The i4 uses the e-TNGA approach of using an ICE platform. BMW does use CF parts in it, as they do with some ICE models. German cars just tend to be on the heavy side.
     
  12. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Then I saw one in the dealer show room. It is far, far, away from the same as an i3. Like I said, I inadvertently laughed at it and my opinion has not changed. Thankfully, BMW canceled it.
    upload_2023-7-12_15-44-44.png

    Look at the left side, wrapped, tail fin. GACKKKK! Some things are so ugly, even I can't stand them.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #12 bwilson4web, Jul 12, 2023
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2023
  13. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    The i8 was cancelled with the i3. It was a CF body on an aluminum frame like the i3.
    The i4 is the current replacement for both.
     
  14. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Wiki suggests something else:
    upload_2023-7-12_15-58-0.png

    I blame Vision EfficientDynamics and Benoit Jacob. I can't image Richard Kim did such a bad job after the i3.

    Bob Wilson
     
  15. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    So the i3 was in production for a couple more years. It is still just as cancelled.;)

    I think the $150k price tag was more of an issue to sales. The i4 is $53k and faster.
     
  16. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    My deal:
    upload_2023-7-12_22-35-27.png

    I got confirmation they got the money so the car is mine. BTW, I measured the expected battery range at the dealer, 100 miles.

    Bob Wilson