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Reflections on the Ardennes

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by bwilson4web, Jun 5, 2018.

  1. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    My wife and I were watching Dunkirk last night and she was asking about what was going on. At the time, she was ~3 years old and never really studied WW-II. But as I was nodding off, I remembered the Germans used the Ardennes twice:
    I can understand the first as a surprise but the second suggests the Allied commanders had forgotten what happened leading up to Dunkirk.

    Bob Wilson
     
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  2. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

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    Ardenne 2.0 created a salient, or "bulge" but strategically....that's about it and it points towards the effectiveness of the much criticized Allied strategic bombing efforts (fuel = mobility.)

    It also utterly delighted Patton for two reasons:

    1. Patton was an offensive General.....in more ways than one. He openly hoped that the Germans would break out all the way to the sea - the better to cut off and encircle many more of them. In other words.....he knew was enough of a strategerist to know that the Bulge was Germany's last throw of the dice.

    2. To quote from Earnest King.....When they get in trouble they send for the sons-of-bitches.
    Patton knew an opportunity when he saw one....personally as well as strategically. ;)
     
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  3. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Patton was described as a military historian too, at least in the movie. Speculation, he would be my first guess as someone keeping a weather eye on the Ardennes.

    Bob Wilson
     
  4. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

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    Yeah....but they didn't put him in charge.

    Eisenhower actually did a masterful job in managing the various Allied egos but prior to Christmas 1944, all of the folks in the head shed were too busy plotting and planning Germany's invasion to consider that the Germans might bring the fight to them.

    War is an exercise in logistics.
    The Allies were stretching their supply tether (something that the Germans didn't fully account for) and the reason that nobody figured that the Germans would try to do a breakout in the Ardennes is the fact that this region is very defensible....even if thinly defended.
    The Germans were trying to poke a hole in the front and then fire-hose their way to Antwerp, splitting the Allied armies into two pieces in the hopes that we could cut a deal on a cease-fire so that Germany could concentrate on the Rooskies.

    This was fantasy heaped on fantasy and it probably shortened the ETO by six months AND it probably led to a bifurcated Germany instead of an all DDR Germany, post WWII.

    One does wonder what would have happened if the Germans would have managed to leg out the ETO by 6-8 months....or even longer.
    Might the 509th have received different tasking in August? ;)

    Fun Fact......Operational for over 70 years now, the 509th is currently led by Brigadier General Paul Tibbets IV.

    Yeah.
    THAT Tibbets.
     
    #4 ETC(SS), Jun 5, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2018
  5. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    They would have gotten the Hiroshima bomb.

    Bob Wilson
     
  6. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

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    Yeah.....
    Imagine a Cold War scenario with one Germany and two Japans......
     
  7. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    Off-topic, but I've been watching The Battle of Chosin, about a pivotal battle in Korea, in December, 1950. On Netflix, at least in Canada, right now. Very harrowing tale, they went in expecting a picnic, got way more than they bargained for, between the unexpected Chinese onslaught, friendly fire, and last but not least, the murderous cold.
     
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  8. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

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    The Frozen Chosin might not be as unrelated as you may think!

    There are more than a few commonalities with the Bulge:
    Anticipation of an upcoming victory.
    Weather.
    Abject Intel failure.
    Supply issues.
    "Head Shed" conflicts....etc
     
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