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Refurbished w/12 month, or New HV battery w/better warranty?

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Main Forum' started by ZonaFrank, Jun 2, 2023.

  1. ZonaFrank

    ZonaFrank New Member

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    I have a 2007 Prius II with 96K miles which just reported it's first issue. I've always told folks I couldn't believe I've never had a single issue with my Prius, nothing needed aside from tires, oil and air/cabin filter changes. Otherwise, it just drives like a dream, consistently averaging 47 MPG. But yesterday the master warning system (red triangle) appeared, and using an OBDII scanner, I read P3015 #07EB, which I believe is a weak battery block. I've watched YouTube videos, and if was younger I might give it a try, but concerned about getting electrocuted, plus I don't think my back and joints could survive the effort. Calling around, I've been quoted $1,600 to refurbish my existing battery, but they only provide me a 12 month warranty. I'm told they use 'used' modules because new ones would not perform well with existing old modules, eventually causing problems. Below is a list of what their service covers. I'm seeking guidance from PriusChat experts on their opinions whether I should pay $1,600 for repair and only 12 month warranty, or if I should go to dealer and purchase new battery? Dealer offers 3 year warranty at a cost of around $3K. I don't have blind trust for the dealer due to past snake-bites. Thanks in advance for any assistance you can provide me in making this decision.
    • The hybrid battery is removed from the vehicle and its overall condition is evaluated.
    • The battery is disassembled, and its modules or cells are tested on our equipment to ensure that they can store electrical energy again.
    • The capabilities of the modules are tested, and their capacities are determined. They are then grouped together with other modules of comparable power and capacity.
    • The battery is built around the good cells after a final charge and module testing.
    • The hybrid battery’s remaining components are tested to ensure peak performance. Mirror Casing Repair
    • The entire battery pack is reinstalled in the vehicle.

     
  2. Montgomery

    Montgomery Senior Member

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    Hello,
    There is an entire thread regarding what you want to do buried in Priuschat. Soon, many will respond to your questions. I suggest you read through them all and draw up your own conclusion. My opinion? I too am not interested in a DIY job when it comes to this (back, knees, joints, etc). But, I would suggest you seek out the responses that offer a "new" HV battery. There are so many new batteries and really good prices and depending on your location, is worth the cost. It will last much longer. It will not go out on you while you are on the way to the beautiful Grand Canyon. When it comes to car batteries, new is better, safer, will come with a better warranty and will be more reliable.
     
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  3. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    your car is barely broken in. if you plan on keeping it awhile, i would go with oem. refurbished are just so hit or miss, and no one here can tell you how long it will last.
    call around to dealers, pricing is competitive
     
  4. ZonaFrank

    ZonaFrank New Member

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    Many thanks, Montgomery...I have been reading as much as I can from the messages here at Prius Chat. I getting some concern that a 'refurbished' may just be someone else's used battery with a one or two replaced 'new' modules, which won't be balanced and would be disappointing. My car has been garaged since I purchased, driven easy, and taken good care of, so aside from the weak block, I suspect the rest of the battery is in good shape. Wish I could get in there and check for corrosion and other quick fixes first - still working up my courage. Electon Hybrid's new cylindrical cells are getting my interest, but I need to research some more. Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts.
     
    #4 ZonaFrank, Jun 2, 2023
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2023
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  5. ZonaFrank

    ZonaFrank New Member

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    Thanks bisco. I hope to keep this car for many, many years, so based upon the replies I've read already, I'm leaning more towards new than refurbished. Thank you for your thoughts.
     
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  6. Tombukt2

    Tombukt2 Senior Member

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    You're not even broke in good has been said already but the age and years and time sitting is here for sure It's hard to tell you what to do The people who can rebuild batteries properly have about 30-40,000 in equipment invested and know how to use it I've bought some batteries from a guy down here on the east coast that does really good work so far both have made two years with no events and then I just put a brand new battery in my '09 personal daily work vehicle I don't know about mid pandemic or something The battery knew from the Toyota dealer when all said and done in my trade-in was accepted out the door price of the battery only cash and carry was $1490 I think
     
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  7. jeff_the_computer_guy

    jeff_the_computer_guy Junior Member

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    Having just faced this issue, but from a patient curiosity (I have a fallback car), I would suggest the following..

    1. In my area, I can buy a new Prius battery from the dealership (parts only) for $1600.
    2. Pulling the battery out and replacing it entire is not too hard a job, the first time it took me an afternoon to pull the battery out with the help of some excellent youtube examples.
    - The high voltage is a concern, but if you follow the Toyota instructions (safety plug, remove the two modules that are connected to the safety plug last, etc. you can do it safely.
    - Taking the battery out allows you to inspect the bus bars for corrosion as well as the HV ECU for corrosion - I had corrosion in both places and I believe a corroded HV ECU could lead to battery damage. Replacing the bus bar connectors, cables (if needed) and ECU is cheap and easy in terms of parts and good preventative maintenance above and beyond the battery.

    If I needed my car back fast, this is what I would have done - the dealer wanted about $4.5K to do this. mechanic's time billed out at $200/hr at a dealership in my area. $1600 for a dealer part plus a Saturday would have gotten me back on the road fastest.

    There are so many folks in my area offering a cheap fix (renovation), I just don't trust them. If you look at the variable ways people restore battery modules, it's all over the map and might only be a short term fix. With a new Toyota battery, you have a little warranty to work with from a known brand.

    That being said, since I had the time and curiosity to get to a repeatable process, for my first battery renovation, I figure I'm out about $600 in chargers and tools, I purchased s total of 10 new modules at about $30 per from two different vendors (ebay and a dedicated battery renewal shop), knowing I would probably kill a couple of cells in my experimenting. I had two bad cells for sure, so I might have been safe just getting 6, so if I had known what I was doing, about $180 in replacement modules.

    So I'm out $800 to get a workable pack, but the issue is getting to a repeatable, fact based process and the time you want to spend.

    Each battery cycle in my resultant process takes about 6 hours per cycle. A minimum cycle count was 2, the maximum cycle count was 5, so call it 3 cycles per module on average. My approach was not to just focus on the failed or obviously week modules, but recondition the entire set of modules since I was going to the trouble anyway. I used 2 quad chargers so I could process 8 modules at a time, 28 modules total, so 4 sets to process, 3x6 hours on average per set = 72 hours end to end. However, I found the most critical part of a cycle was the charging, requiring constant monitoring for 2 hours, so you can't go continuous without delay. Since I have to work for a living, 72 hours ended up being about 3 weeks. That's a lot of hours and if I didn't have a car, wouldn't have worked well for me.

    All that to say, I'm glad I did what I did. Not counting my own time I saved about $3k in cash and now have the means to start refurbishing my next battery starting with a junkyard unit so I can swap out in a weekend should I need to in the future.

    Summary (IMHO)
    1. Best option for a quick solution is to buy a replacement battery from Toyota, watch some youtube (great references here in the Wiki sections) and do the battery swap yourself, entire.
    2. Using someone else to refurbish - YMMV - how long have they been in business, is it a real business or a guy like me in a garage... ;)
    3. If you take the long view, or want to have a hobby buying cheap Gen 2 Prius' with bad batteries or keep a spare battery ready, getting the gear and learning about batteries might be worth it. (if you work from home, have a second car or cheap Uber, yada yada yada).

    I'm gonna post my experience here and elsewhere, as there is a lot of FUD out there, especially from some of those trying to sell something, directly or via affiliation.

    Hope this helps.

    - Jeff
     
    #7 jeff_the_computer_guy, Jun 3, 2023
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2023
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  8. ZonaFrank

    ZonaFrank New Member

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    Thank you Tombukt2. I'm working hard now to interview and determine if the local refurbishers here in Phoenix area have similar skill and capability as the guy you mentioned down there. I've weeded out a few and found one who may have the capability, but based upon the price, and the many number of years I plan to keep this car, I'm now leaning more towards buying new. I was planning today to determine if non-dealers are able to install and warranty OEM battery from Toyota, so I can avoid the dealer. Will update the outcome once complete for others looking at this conversation. Thank you for your inputs - good food for thought.
     
  9. ZonaFrank

    ZonaFrank New Member

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    Hey Jeff....wow, thanks for all this invaluable information (from another IT guy). As you suggest, I did watch a number of YouTube videos which were very enlightening. This guy, ChrisFix made it look very easy, but he clearly is a pro and had all the tools (although he didn't charge old cells, just purchased all new and replaced himself)
    That being said, a few other videos gave me reason to pause, as they were of pretty able-bodied men in their youth and I could see them struggling a bit here and there, meaning it will be even harder for me.

    I'm glad to hear their is a way to lessen the electrocution risk - my wife is extremely concerned that I'm considering this as she doesn't want to lose me to save a few grand.

    That price your dealer quoted you is really high, so I can appreciate your motivation to repair on your own. Today I plan to triangulate costs and warranties from all the Toyota dealers in the Phoenix metropolitan area, as well as try to find independent shops who may install OEM product / warranty. This effort will be to learn as much as I can about pricing and warranties to use as leverage in possible negotiations, if the market (supply/demand) will bear it.

    Again, thanks for the insights and details, as well as your recommendations, which I greatly appreciate and will definitely take into consideration.
    Cheers, Frank
     
  10. jeff_the_computer_guy

    jeff_the_computer_guy Junior Member

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    I may have left out one pertinent fact.

    Even a 62 year old man with the nickname Fit Santa can get a battery out of a Prius without causing back trouble... ;)

    The only special tools I needed were a metric set of sockets and a torque wrench, both from Harbor Supply for under $30 total.

    Best of luck - I think avoiding the $200/hr mechanic fee may be the best cost leverage, whatever you choose to do.

    - Jeff
     
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  11. Isaac Zachary

    Isaac Zachary Senior Member

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    The thing about refurbished is that you're taking an old, worn out battery and replacing it with an old, worn out battery. If one of your spark plugs died would you go replace it with a used one from a car with similar miles to yours or would you take that as a hint to replace all of them with new ones? Because that's what a refurbished battery basically is and why they want your battery as a core. They take your working cells/modules as well as from other cars and make full batteries out of those. But all of them are old batteries that may last another 3 years or another year or another week. You never know.

    A new battery would be best. You can't go wrong with Toyota OEM. I am kind of liking the idea of upgrading to a Project Lithium battery but am still on the fence to that idea.
     
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  12. jeff_the_computer_guy

    jeff_the_computer_guy Junior Member

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    Really good point. In my area, $1600 for new battery, refurb is about $8-900 "installed taking your core".

    A refurb original battery (first fail) is probably 2-6 bad cells and 22-26 tired cells that can be reconditioned. Using something like tmr-jwap's setup / 2 (4 chargers instead of 7), you're talking about $1000 in one-time costs plus call it $100 in replacement cells. 2 hands-off cycles a day and labor leads me to a reasonable "tired" battery replacement of about $500 makes sense to me, but some of the shippable replacement batteries (no labor) are already above the Toyota price.

    So at $500 for remanufactured (tired old) I might do it with someone in business for 5 years and a 1 year 100% warranty. More than that and the new, balanced, matched Toyota battery seems a lot smarter - unless I can't afford $1600 (plus temporary $1500 core charge) and I need a working car now.
     
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  13. Tim Jones

    Tim Jones Senior Member

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    Don't put another used battery in... u have super low miles....and better than a gen 3
     
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  14. Tim Jones

    Tim Jones Senior Member

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    Totally disconnect the batteries.
    Read each batteries voltage.
    Replace the lowest voltage ones.
     
  15. jeff_the_computer_guy

    jeff_the_computer_guy Junior Member

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    There is a bit more to it than that.

    1. Capacity differences
    2. Self-discharge differences
    3. Internal resistance differences

    It would be a real hassle to dissemble a battery, replace modules based on voltage alone, put it back together then have to do it again in a month when the module(s) that were just about to fail...failed.

    Unless that was just sarcasm... ;)

    - Jeff
     
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  16. Isaac Zachary

    Isaac Zachary Senior Member

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    It can and has been done before. It's basically the same thing as a refurbished battery, only it costs around $30 or so per bad module. You can also move all your modules around so the middle ones are closer to the ends and ends closer to the middle. That way you give them a little more life since the middle tends to be the hotest and thus they wear out a little faster there.
     
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  17. jeff_the_computer_guy

    jeff_the_computer_guy Junior Member

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    Agreed, it can be done and can get you back on the road fastest, no dispute. It's just a lot of labor that might have to be repeated in a very short time. At minimum I would fully charge the cells while in the car (driving), pull it out and check voltages, then check voltages again every 24 hours while I had it out to see the rate of self-discharge. Checking IR using a meter and headlight bulb is also quick and easy - approximate by doing a 2 min discharge with the headlight and compare voltage loss, pull the bad ones that lose the most voltage compared to the others.

    Also, if you take it apart to replace a module, check for corrosion on the bus bar and inside the ECU connector. Just like changing the oil.

    Capacity differences take all the time to measure, but you can probably identify the worst modules with a couple of hours of additional testing.

    -Jeff
     
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  18. Tim Jones

    Tim Jones Senior Member

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    I been through the entire battery game.
    High end charger and all the bad stuff...
    The guy is low on cash.... and maybe not to technical.
    I bought a new battery.... it's just the only way you can trust that part of the car.
     
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  19. jeff_the_computer_guy

    jeff_the_computer_guy Junior Member

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    Yep, that's my conclusion as well - buy an entire new battery if you can afford it. ($1600)

    Install it yourself with some voltage safety, a metric socket set and torsion wrench. (save $3K) - takes a Saturday and some youtube time in prep.

    Pull the battery, check corrosion, ECU, buy some modules (check before you pull it with Dr. Prius or Torque or other OSB tool) - 2x number of bad blocks in modules, test voltage drop, IR (load test), swap the worst out and get on with life ($70 per bad block, plus a cheap multimeter and a headlight bulb if you don't have one) - cheap and quick solution. - takes a weekend at best, maybe a holiday weekend...

    If you like science projects and understanding how things work, buy a couple of chargers and prepare to be without your car for several weeks. ;)

    - Jeff
     
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  20. jeff_the_computer_guy

    jeff_the_computer_guy Junior Member

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    Addendum - not sure how the new battery comes - if it's just the battery and hugger frame (with busbar and cables), check the old ECU for corrosion. If it's the whole assembly, then its plug and play.