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Residential Solar Panels

Discussion in 'Environmental Discussion' started by albob, Dec 4, 2008.

  1. albob

    albob New Member

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    Is there a site like PriusChat that is dedicated to Residential Solar Panels. I'm looking for a site with discussion boards where I can see what others have done, ask questions, find reputable installers, etc.

    I've found plenty of information (articles, magazines, e-zines, how-to's, etc.) on the web, but not much "interactive" content like PriusChat.

    Thanks!
     
  2. icarus

    icarus Senior Member

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    I don't know of a forum within Prius chat, but I suggest that you check out the following link:Solar Electric Discussion Forum - Powered by vBulletin

    This is an RE forum that is populated by some very smart, very learned, every experienced folks, with no sales pitch from the site. Just people who have invented the wheel so that we don't have to keep reinventing it.

    Icarus
     
  3. albob

    albob New Member

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    Thanks, Icarus. Yeah - I didn't mean a forum in PriusChat, but one similar to it. I'll check out your link.

    Great name, by the way!!

    Allen
     
  4. rigormortis

    rigormortis Active Member

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    theres a company now that leases out the equipment, they claim that with your new electricity bill + the solar lease can be less then what your paying now for electricity.

    . $0 due upon lease signing. No security deposit required. A lease for a 3.2kW system starts at $105 per month with an annual increase of 3.9% each year for 15 years, on approved credit
     
  5. icarus

    icarus Senior Member

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    I believe you are referring to "CitizenRe" This company has been looked at and followed for a number of years, and they have yet to fulfill ANY of it's promises! The only thing that they have delivered is hype and vaporware!

    It is widely considered that this is a multilevel marketing scheme,, Ponzi type.

    The reality, and the economics are such that there is no such plan that can pay for itself they way it is sold. I have also heard of others trying to pull the same kind of scam. Before you consider spending a nickel on Solar, do your home work and read all you can about what your costs and expectations should be.

    I am not pooh-poohing PV solar, but crap like this just makes the legitimate vendors, dealers, installers etc look bad and make it that much harder to sell legitimate systems!

    Icarus
     
  6. Codyroo

    Codyroo Senior Member

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    I think down here he is refering to a company called Solar City. I believe they have a building (or headquarters) in Foster City, near where I work.

    SolarCity: Solar panels & solar leasing for residential, commercial and government.

    I'm not advocating for them, I have no idea how good a deal it is (or is not), just providing a link.
     
  7. icarus

    icarus Senior Member

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    I'm going to look at that a bit closer,,, and run it by my solar friends to see what they know, Thanks for the link.

    Icarus
     
  8. rigormortis

    rigormortis Active Member

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    i was referring to solar city. i just didn't feel like plugging them, heh
     
  9. RobH

    RobH Senior Member

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    It really amazes me that people can claim that solar electricity is either always cost effective, or never cost effective. I've had a system on my roof for the past 7 years, and I still can't tell you if it is more or less expensive that the grid power that it displaces. I'm happy with the performance, and would do it again given what I know now. But financially, it will take another 20 years to figure out an exact comparison of costs.

    If you're paying 6 cents per KWH for grid power, there's no way the current technology photovoltaic systems will ever reach parity. If you're paying 57 cents for top tier power in a sunny climate, the breakeven may be 3 years, with another 30+ years of free electricity.

    My experience is that it is easy to overestimate the effectiveness of an installation, so I would downrate anything that even an honest salesman claims. The first exageration that many people expect is that a 150 watt panel provides 150 watts of power. Well, maybe in the lab with everything perfect, but not in the real world. That 150 watts easily becomes more like 110 watts in the middle of the day, 20 watts at 4:00, and zero watts all night. What you actually get to use over the period of a year may well be an average of 25 watts an hour, probably less. The numbers vary depending on location, weather, panel orientation, inverter efficiency, shading, dirt or bird droppings on the panels, crud in the sky, and on and on.

    Back in 2001 when Enron was screwing over California with their Get Shorty and other manipulations, I decided to reduce my dependence on such crooks. I can pass the solar off now as being green, but the deciding factor at the time was to direct my money toward the good guys instead of the bad guys. Financially it's about a wash so far, but that could change with new rate structures or equipment failures. The panels are guaranteed for 20 years, but the electronics are only guaranteed for 5 years. I will be really surprised if the $3000 inverter doesn't have to be replaced some time within the next 20 years. As for the panels, they'll probably be useful for another 50 years, or until new technology is so attractive that it is appropriate to replace them.

    Justifying solar panels is very similar to justifying a hybrid. Financially the argument can go both ways. It's a lot easier to make the decision based on whether you want your money to support the good guys or the bad guys. Do you want to use ho hum entrenched technology, or Oh Gee Wow new technology? Are you an early adopter, a mainstream user, or a history buff? Solar has past the early adopter stage, and is now moving into the mainstream.
     
  10. icarus

    icarus Senior Member

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    I couldn't have said it better myself!!! Your last paragraph is exactly the point!

    As for sales claims,,,For a rule of thumb, I like to use ~60% of label for 4 hours, depending on the climate and the latitude. For off grid, where my experience lies I use ~50% net/net.

    Icarus
     
  11. icarus

    icarus Senior Member

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    I am going to vote undecided on this one. It seems like a legit company with legit products, installs and customers. I have only found a few customer reviews, and no negative ones. (I am wary of not seeing any negative reviews of anyone!) It seems like a conventional lease arrangement that has some back loaded expenses such as balloon payments due later in the lease period.

    I confess that I haven't read all the details. My only word of caution is if you are considering this type arrangement, do your home work.

    Icarus
     
  12. steph.pak05

    steph.pak05 New Member

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    Residential solar panels are the greatest deal you can ever get! Beside the fact that they can give enough power , that specific power is given free. Since the sun gives out the power we can benefit from these panels. I myself have been satisfied with their performance and I know it could help many people as well :)
     
  13. icarus

    icarus Senior Member

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    Don't get me wrong, as I am a strong advocate for PV, but the power is not "free". The capital investment is significant, and the real financial payoff is long term if ever. What makes PV accounting difficult is understanding that we have subsidized power generation now from conventional sources, and as such, we are not paying the full price at the meter. The biggest unknown is how are power prices likely to rise over the life of a PV system, say 20-30 years. My guess is that they are likely to go up!

    Icarus
     
  14. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    The financial payoff today is very dependent, and varies tremendously, on the subsidies available. In my case the PV install would be paid off after 8 years.
     
  15. jcgee88

    jcgee88 Member

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    There is a natural tendancy to seek a financial justification
    for installing solar panels. I've never felt that this was a
    good way to decide to install or not. The vast majority of
    things we buy we do not subject to "payback period" tests,
    ROI, and the like. A car costs about the same as a solar array -
    who asks how long the payback period is on a new car? Or,
    a house, a pet, a college education, a baseball game, high
    speed Internet? I sense we'd have much broader acceptance
    of renewable energy in general if there weren't such an almost
    maniacal forcus on cost and payback. Like all things we
    buy, it's the value of the product that we should consider.

    For me, yes, the dollars and cents had to be in the "feasible"
    range. That is, there was a breakeven point within the
    expected lifetime of the array; but equally important
    were other factors. You can count the money down to
    the nickel, but, as Master Card likes to say, the other
    factors are priceless.

    Here are some of the things I wanted (and some benefits
    I unexpectedly got) for my solar array:

    Provide 25 years of 40-50% reduced electricity bills.

    Halve my exposure to future utility rate increases.

    Halve the air pollution caused by the coal that the local
    utility burns on my behalf.

    Reduce the demand for coal, whose extraction is done
    at a heavy cost to coal miners and their families, and
    to our forests, mountains, and streams.

    Provide economic stimulus for my installer and the
    rest of the solar food chain.

    Get other people to help pay for something that will
    be exclusively mine. :)

    Show the neighbors in my subdivision and my city
    that solar is doable, affordable, and effective. Even
    on a middle class house that is not "perfect" for solar.

    Encourage others to go ahead with solar (a relative
    and a friend both went forward with their projects after
    seeing mine).

    It has provided endless entertainment (monitoring one's
    production stats on Enphase's web site is highly
    addictive!), and is always a great conversation starter.

    --

    So who knows how long it will take me to break even,
    but during that entire time I will benefit in ways that
    are, truly, priceless.
     
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  16. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    +1

    The prospect of utilizing OPM (other peoples' money: local utility's customers as well as federal and state income tax credits) for my benefit was a big motivator. I believe my solar PV system payback will be ~8 years.

    However the system is not "exclusively mine" because I am obligated to keep the system operational for a 20 year period, and this obligation must be passed along to any future buyers of my home.

    I personally require some prospect of a reasonable financial return on this investment because I have many alternative uses for the funds (i.e., I can perceive many potential ways to spend money, while the available disposable income is not unlimited).
     
  17. boulder_bum

    boulder_bum Senior Member

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    I installed solar panels this year (thanks, stimulus funds)!

    I'll probably never see an ROI because of how my lame anti-green electric co-op works. They offered housing developers financial incentives if they guaranteed a minimum monthly payment (with higher incentives going to higher monthly payment guarantees), so 25 years ago, someone got paid good money to make sure I'd never pay less than $30 a month on my bill! It feels criminal!

    Anyway, if you're looking into PV panels, the one thing I'd recommend is 1. do it this year before the federal tax credits expire 2. look into if your state has any stimulus funds left as incentives 3. check with your electric company to see if THEY have any incentives and...

    4. Get an electricity usage monitor like eGauge. It's difficult to monitor electricity usage if all you get is a bill at the end of the month (how much did you produce? how much did you use?), so if you're taking energy conservation measures, it's hard to tell how well they're working.

    Here's my real-time energy usage and production (available online and compatible with iPhone):
    Power Center

    Interestingly, the usage spikes (going over 3-4 Kwh usage) are actually clothes dryers, which I had no idea used so much electricity. I may end up trying a laundry drying rack in the future to see if we can cut usage that way.
     
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  18. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    it's called a clothesline. so last century.:)
     
  19. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    ^^ Nowadays it is called a direct solar heater appliance.
     
  20. boulder_bum

    boulder_bum Senior Member

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    We actually looked into that! In fact, we have one but haven't installed it. Right now it won't work because it's freezing outside, though.

    We thought about something like this for Christmas:
    Wall Shelf Drying Rack - Gaiam