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Response to Malorn's poll about Toyota and Economy

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Main Forum' started by Maytrix, Oct 31, 2005.

  1. Maytrix

    Maytrix Member

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    I like the concept of your poll Malorn, but given the 3 choices, there really is only 1 correct response - it's not really a matter of opinion, but rather a fact.

    Give these 3 choices:

    1) A Toyota vehicle sale helps the US Economy and has a net positive effect on job growth and income levels.

    2) A Toyota sale has no effect on the US Economy

    3) A Toyota vehicle sale hurts the US economy and has a net negative effect on job growth and income levels.


    The problem with these choices is that the only real answer is #1. A Toyota vehicle sale has a positive effect.. here's why:

    It's Sold in the US. That means the following benefits:

    A) Excise tax
    B) Sales Tax
    C) Dealer profits
    D) Future maintenance / repairs

    So, how can choice #2 or #3 be possible? Any sale of anything in the US has a positive effect on job growth and income levels - Someone needs to sell it and someone will make money off of selling it.

    If you compare which has a greater effect, between a Toyota and a Ford (for example), then things might be different.
     
  2. LaughingMan

    LaughingMan Active Member

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    Predictable response, I am anticipating. He's going to mention how you *should* have bought an American car because then the manufacture happens here and the money changes hands to an American corporation rather than a foreign one.

    A difference of opinion.
     
  3. malorn

    malorn Senior Member

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    You are right about a,b,c, and d. Those are also true if GM or Ford sell a vehicle. The difference is in the production. Say a vehcle COSTS 25000 to manufacture. If the vehicle is made in Japan almost that entire amount is transfered to Japan and dispersed among different Toyota entities and employees. If that vehicle is manufactured by Ford or Toyota that $25000 stays in the United States and is multiplied throughout the US economy. If Toyota manufactures a vehicle in the US, a chunk of the $'s stay in the US but the money for the big $ components (ie engine , trans,etc is usually sent back to Japan. This is the reason that the higher the $ vehicle the less the chance it is manufactured here. Lexus' North American content is 4%--$50000 Lexus and $2000 stays in the US.
     
  4. Mystery Squid

    Mystery Squid Junior Member

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  5. Maytrix

    Maytrix Member

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    Yes, but given your question and choices, the only answer is #1. In comparison to buying a Toyota vs a Ford, the Ford has a greater effect on the economy, but BOTH do have a positive effect. My point is simple - read your question as if you have no other information - not everyone answering that poll will have read the 6 pages from smoke and mirrors topic.

    I'll also add, that how much of the $25000 stays in Japan differs as well - where do they get the raw materials for their production?

    Here's another way to look at it - we all live on the same planet - So if someone is doing things to make the planet a better place, I'm all for it.
     
  6. LaughingMan

    LaughingMan Active Member

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    So what's your point? This is the way it's been for at least a few decades... people have been saying this exact same thing from the very beginning and using this as an excuse to only buy domestic...

    But it's happened anyway... american made goods are rare now... but we've gone on to do other things. your beef isn't with Toyota. Your beef is with globalization... so don't go blaming Toyota for all the world's problems.

    Globalization has brought McDonalds and Nike brands to all corners of the world, but look at the clothing your wearing... where is it made? China? Indonesia?

    How do you propose we change this? Or does this need changing at all?
     
  7. malorn

    malorn Senior Member

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    I just want people to know what they are actually doing when they buy. A pair of shoes is one thing, but it takes a # of shoes to equal the dollars in one Lexus. I think education is the best way, and that is all I'm really trying to do is get people to think. Toyota is not an American company, so when they buy that Lexus SUV they will know one of the reasons that school districts, local governments, and many people can not maintain their current standards. Over time the lack of an industrial base will catch up with us, my hope is we realize it before it is too late.
     
  8. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    You can't place the entire blame on the car industry. It's just the way the government handles the money that's causing all the problems. Either way, just because it's made somewhere else doesn't mean that the money stays there. You're just assuming that a Japanese made car is solely made in Japan with parts sourced in Japan and nowhere else. Materials come from all over the place and it's just assembled in Japan. Likewise in the US. You're buying raw (or processed) materials from other countries. A country cannot be self contained otherwise, it'll never grow. Just because the US companies are losing the auto industry war, doesn't mean it's the end of the world.

    If you're saying this just to arouse an argument that the Big 3 are losing because of Toyota, that's just a tiny little sliver of what's really happening in the big picture.
     
  9. malorn

    malorn Senior Member

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    These are not tv's or radios, these are $25000 a crack automobiles. This Japanese assault is led by Toyota and is reaching critical mass, Ford and GM are in big trouble and may not make it. When/if they fail you will realize what a part the auto industry plays in the US economy.
     
  10. wilco

    wilco New Member

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    Funny stuff... who'd you vote for in the last election?
     
  11. malorn

    malorn Senior Member

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    What is funny about it?
     
  12. LaughingMan

    LaughingMan Active Member

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    You cannot blame people for doing coming to a decision and buying what they believe is the best possible car for them. If that happens to be a foreign vehicle, that points to a weakness by the domestic vehicles.

    If domestic car manufacturers had a compelling offering for what Americans want, then Americans will buy them...

    I never liked the thought of buying an inferior American product simply to support an American company... that type of reasoning is backward. American companies should be encouraged to produce better and better products instead of the being encouraged to produce the same inferior quality and have people buy them.

    Competition is good... it's good for the consumer... innovation comes from competition.

    If GM and the others fail, it's not because the American public turned their back on them, but because GM turned their back on the American public... They'd have failed because they failed to produce a compelling product. Simple as that.

    Are there going to be ramifications if GM goes belly up? Of course... should be we be going out of our way to "sacrifice" and buy nothing but American cars to save GM? That seems kind of far off... If GM is going to be saved, they have to do their own saving.
     
  13. LaughingMan

    LaughingMan Active Member

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    That doesn't make Toyota this evil conspiracy you imply. Your tone has changed dramatically from the last thread where you were bashing Toyota on every single talking point... bashing Toyota's hybrids as nothing more than a smoke screen...

    I'll say it again: if GM or Ford goes down, it'll be because they made their own mistakes, and Toyota has nothing to do with it. It's business.

    You're just whining because your home team isn't winning.
     
  14. malorn

    malorn Senior Member

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    The rest of the Japanese manufacturers ride Toyota's coat tails. As Toyota goes, so goes the rest of the Japanese companies.
     
  15. Jonnycat26

    Jonnycat26 New Member

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    And for every moron who overpays for his dressed up Toyota called a Lexus, how many Japanese consumers buy a computer with Windows on it? Or how many Japanese corporations pay support to Redhat and Novell for Linux? Or how many Japanese kids bop around with iPods, cos lord knows Sony can't compete in that arena anymore. And the list goes on with CPUs, cellphones, etc.

    It works both ways.

    That said, I think Ford has done a really 180 over the last few years, and over that short span of time probably has a better track record than Toyota. Now GM... alas GM. Time to get your act together GM.
     
  16. malorn

    malorn Senior Member

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    So far the poll is going about the way I thought. The overwhelming majority think a Toyota sale has a net positive effect on the US economy. Maybe in the future I will try clarify what "net effect" means.
     
  17. LaughingMan

    LaughingMan Active Member

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    So what? If you really want the domestics to survive, instead of bashing Toyota, you should be encouraging GM, Ford, and Daimler Chrysler to get off their butts and start making better cars, or find a way to make their process more efficient to save more money...
     
  18. LaughingMan

    LaughingMan Active Member

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    You're only trying to prove how stupid everyone else is... :angry: Well we're not going to fall for it.

    You're a piece of work. You're probably judging all of us as unpatriotic americans for driving around our Japanese made cars, and propping yourself up because you drive a Chevy. Wonderful. :rolleyes:
     
  19. malorn

    malorn Senior Member

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    Its perception. The media has a huge hand in that. So somehow Ford and GM need to get that across to the media.
     
  20. malorn

    malorn Senior Member

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    Not unpatriotic, just short-sighted! I compare it to the new documentary out about the real cost to consumers of Wal-Mart's low prices