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Revenue

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by DaveinOlyWA, Mar 24, 2009.

?
  1. Yes, create a gas tax, graduated as needed to maintain a price ceiling

    7 vote(s)
    36.8%
  2. Start placing heavy taxes on Carbon Producing Sources

    10 vote(s)
    52.6%
  3. Find it another Way

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. Hell With Green, I Wont Live Long Enough to see the real bad stuff anyway

    2 vote(s)
    10.5%
  1. DaveinOlyWA

    DaveinOlyWA 3rd Time was Solariffic!!

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    **edit** pretend question #1 reads

    institute a gas tax that varies according to real market price to remain at a set point to start at $2.50 a gallon. as our economy turns around, the set point will increase by raising taxes that match the level of the recovery unless real market value pushes the real cost of gas beyond the set point at which taxes would be temporarily suspended until market prices go below the set point.

    ok, so Obama's bailout is starting to take shape... mostly resembling a mountain... of debt that is. well, cant say that i expected the issues to be resolved cheaply.

    now he has already said that raising gas taxes was not an option, but i think that is a mistake. we need to significantly reduce our foreign oil bill and the faster we do it, the better.

    a network of plug in stations, massive funding and rebates on EV tech, etc, etc, etc. we need it all. plus a whole new industry will help replace the jobs that are so sorely needed right now.

    but that is just more money to spend.

    so poll time!!
     
  2. eagle33199

    eagle33199 Platinum Member

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    I'm torn on this issue. Yes, raising gas taxes will certainly help to drive down demand and could raise a ton of revenue for moving our country forward on new technology. However, it comes at a cost, and right now i'm not sure our economy can handle the added cost. Increasing the gas tax would increase the amount consumers pay for gas. It would increase the operating costs for companies, and increase the price of goods sold for almost everything.

    In short, it's a good idea at a bad time. As the economy recovers, however, i could see slowly ramping something like this up - it could be a great tool to ensure that the economy doesn't recover too quickly, as rapid economic assents usually aren't sustainable. It would be much better to temper things and draw it out.
     
  3. JSH

    JSH Senior Member

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    I voted for the gas tax but I think that option is worded wrong. A variable gas tax would be implemented to maintain a price floor, a minimum price gasoline could sell at.
     
  4. PriuStorm

    PriuStorm Senior Member

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    I am increasingly getting reluctant to support any more taxes. Unfortunately in this country, we don't have as honest a government or as much accountability as can be found in European countries that have higher taxes but enjoy so many more benefits than we do here. I would fear that we would pass a tax like that, fill the coffers with appropriated funds, then the administration would change and the coffers would be pillaged once again. We simply can't trust elected officials or leaders in any kind of power to do the right thing with our money. It is sad that the supposed 'leading nation of the world' is as corrupt as the worst of them.
     
  5. DaveinOlyWA

    DaveinOlyWA 3rd Time was Solariffic!!

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    i agree that more taxes right now is going to be hard, but we need to look at the long term gain, especially if the bulk, say at least 75% is spent specifically on advancing green tech. be it charging stations, EV purchase sudsidies, smart electrical grid, solar, etc.

    all of this will reduce the half trillion a year we give to get oil. right now, we should not be paying less than $2.50 for gas. and right now with the economic climate, it should be a ceiling. taxes should bridge that gap and be adjusted as the market changes to keep the purchase price stable.

    or lets do the alternative. take 10% of what we pay for foreign oil and invest in green tech. that would probably be a hell of a lot more money, at least at first.
     
  6. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    Dave, I think the poll choices were poorly worded. I don't think we want a price ceiling on gas. But unlike most polls, you did include the one I think best:

    A heavy tax on carbon.

    Since petroleum is a hydrocarbon, gas would be hit by this tax, as it should be, but so would natural gas, and mostly coal, which is a disaster from mine to smoke stack.

    I would put the tax on carbon, but calculate it so that it effectively raises the cost of gasoline to around $10 for now, maybe higher later on. Then, to address the issue of poor people being unable to afford gas and heat, I would implement a national fair wage law so that nobody who works 40 hours a week would be poor.

    We have an economic system where it is permitted to hire someone full time and then pay them so little they have to choose between food and shelter, and forget about medical care. This is a national disgrace. But then to make it worse, we act as though this criminally disgraceful economic system were the natural way of things, and a reason to subsidize the petroleum industry.

    Energy has a huge social cost. This cost must be reflected in its price. And as a society, we can no longer justify feudal economic relations where a disempowered work force is paid too little to live on.
     
  7. DaveinOlyWA

    DaveinOlyWA 3rd Time was Solariffic!!

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    well the poor wording had to do with the 100 character limitation. had to redo the question about 5 times. the meaning got a bit lost in translation

    what i wanted:

    institute a gas tax that varies according to real market price to remain at a set point to start at $2.50 a gallon. as our economy turns around, the set point will increase by raising taxes that match the level of the recovery unless real market value pushes the real cost of gas beyond the set point at which taxes would be temporarily suspended until market prices go below the set point.

    but that was more than 100 characters, so it goes
     
  8. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    "Tax gas to set a $2.50 price floor. Increase as the economy improves."

    69 characters.

    However, when writing poll answers, the more detailed you get, the less likely anyone will want to pick the answer.

    "Tax gas to make it expensive," would be more general. In your post you could give specifics of your plan, and people can always post comments.
     
  9. hyo silver

    hyo silver Awaaaaay

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    Gasoline already is absurdly expensive. Not the price, which is heavily subsidised and artificially low, but the cost. We don't count it that way, but we should.
     
  10. DaveinOlyWA

    DaveinOlyWA 3rd Time was Solariffic!!

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    so true. the real cost is scary to think about. but people dont do anything unless they can touch it. indirect cause and effect means nothing to most people. if it did, then Global Climate Change would be the top priority of everybody, not just scientists
     
  11. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

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    My suggestion falls very much in line with Daniels.
    Tax carbon which, in turn, would also increase the cost of gasoline.
    We really don't pay the true cost of gasoline or coal. If we did, alternatives would be that much more appealing.
     
  12. DaveinOlyWA

    DaveinOlyWA 3rd Time was Solariffic!!

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    the problem with taxing carbon is that is so sweeping for many, even those are doing everything they can do to reduce their footprint. taxing carbon in some areas will cause a huge increase in electricity rates.

    taxing gas, granted is just one small area, but an area that we can make personal choices on. there are alternative methods of transportation. making certain fuel taxes exempt for mass transit systems since most are currently supported thru local taxes since fare revenues dont really cover the cost.

    the best option i am sure is probably a combination of several things. for places like New York where personal gas purchases are not as likely, taxes in other areas are probably best.